The Discipline and Punish Podcast


June 24, 2020 Thomas Baker Season 1 Episode 19
The Discipline and Punish Podcast
Show Notes Transcript

On this episode, Professor Valcore and I discuss the history of policing in the transgender community, the current state of affairs, what impact has training on addressing the problem, and steps we can take to create an institution that provides all communities with fair and equitable police services.  

Jace L. Valcore, PhD, is an Assistant Professor of Criminal Justice at the University of Houston Downtown. His educational background includes degrees in Sociology, Criminal Justice, and Public Affairs.  This multidisciplinary training fuels research interests in public policy, criminal law, social justice, and the criminal legal system with a specifically queer lens focused on the experiences, needs, and elevation of the LGBTQ community.  He is currently completing projects on the experiences of LGBTQ police officers, media analysis of the 2016 mass shooting at Pulse nightclub in Orlando, FL, hate speech in political campaigns, and more.  He provides queer competency workshops, including Trans 101 in-service police training, and serves on UHD’s Criminal Justice Training Center Advisory Board and the Houston Independent Police Oversight Board.

Map of Gender Diverse Cultures from PBS Independent Lens:

DOJ Community Relations Service Roll Call Training Video:

Tom Baker has been a PhD student in UMSL's Criminology and Criminal Justice program since 2017. Tom received his BA in Political Science from Arizona State University and worked as a police officer for approximately nine years. His research interests include police culture, use of force, and qualitative research methods.

Support the show

00:00:01.290 --> 00:00:08.550
Tom Baker: Hey, thanks so much for joining me. I really appreciate your time. I did a I did a brief introduction ahead of time. But if you could just

00:00:09.660 --> 00:00:14.160
Tom Baker: Maybe give people an idea, a little bit more about you can tell us maybe where you start by where you grew up.

00:00:15.509 --> 00:00:21.480
Jace Valcore: Sure. Um, I grew up in the Midwest North Midwest was born in Michigan.

00:00:22.560 --> 00:00:32.640
Jace Valcore: Moved to Carmel, Indiana, when I was six. And that's where I was raised, more or less, which is a conservative wealthy suburb of Indianapolis.

00:00:34.230 --> 00:00:41.010
Jace Valcore: undergraduate degree was at Eastern Illinois University. So not too far away, still in the Midwest. And then finally,

00:00:42.690 --> 00:00:44.790
Jace Valcore: for personal reasons I left them in West

00:00:45.870 --> 00:00:51.270
Jace Valcore: wasn't particularly comfortable there and I did all my graduate work in mercy, Colorado, Denver.

00:00:52.380 --> 00:00:56.460
Jace Valcore: And then directly from Denver to where I am now Houston, Texas.

00:00:56.670 --> 00:01:11.160
Tom Baker: Okay. And I saw in your bio said that because I asked everyone you know what got you interested in studying what you study and you say the started like in junior high, you were interested in the criminal justice system like I wasn't what was it,

00:01:12.510 --> 00:01:14.400
Tom Baker: What was it that was better retention.

00:01:15.810 --> 00:01:29.040
Jace Valcore: Um, specifically for me. So in eighth grade two things happen simultaneously my eldest brother graduated from law school and I took a career aptitude tests that said I should be a judge.

00:01:30.840 --> 00:01:43.650
Jace Valcore: And so, of course, like a lot of Americans. I was also, you know, very much into CSI and and well for me like X Files all those like FBI cop shows. Right. So I was like, oh yeah, this is gonna be awesome, right.

00:01:44.760 --> 00:01:53.640
Jace Valcore: We get students all the time who who who still don't recognize that it's just entertainment. It's just entertainment. It's not real at all. Um,

00:01:54.510 --> 00:02:09.240
Jace Valcore: But yeah, so I just went down that road. I started i again i was in a wealthy suburbs. So I was able to start taking like criminal law intro to CJ type courses in high school and just continue down that path. I thought I wanted to be an FBI agent.

00:02:10.440 --> 00:02:17.940
Jace Valcore: went to grad school. Still thinking still aiming for federal law enforcement, but then got picked up by a professor

00:02:19.230 --> 00:02:21.750
Jace Valcore: Who wanted me to work with her on some research projects.

00:02:22.980 --> 00:02:27.390
Jace Valcore: So, you know, I did my thesis with her. So he ended up being my dissertation chair as well.

00:02:28.800 --> 00:02:30.660
Jace Valcore: And I ended up in the academy instead

00:02:31.500 --> 00:02:40.380
Tom Baker: Okay, so it was it was more of like thinking about being a practitioner and then along the way sort of got fell into research and fell in love with it and

00:02:41.400 --> 00:02:45.030
Jace Valcore: Yeah, I'm basically. Yeah, I mean,

00:02:48.030 --> 00:03:00.540
Jace Valcore: Yeah, I mean, it was I had professors along the way in my undergrad, who said, hey, you've got a talent for this you should go grad school and I got to grad school and I got picked up by some more to say do research with us, get your PhD. And so I just went along with it.

00:03:01.770 --> 00:03:22.890
Jace Valcore: And it at the time it. It made me more comfortable because my conception of Federal law enforcement versus my conception of higher education was that as a queer person I would be better off in the academy. So that also was a definite factor for, for me, deciding to go that route.

00:03:23.610 --> 00:03:31.830
Tom Baker: How do you do you feel that. Do you still feel that's true. Do you feel as though the Academy is a welcoming and accepting as as a welcoming accepting places you thought

00:03:32.940 --> 00:03:36.270
Jace Valcore: Um, that's not a universal truth, of course.

00:03:37.290 --> 00:03:42.330
Jace Valcore: No. For me, I have been fortunate I have had, I've had it.

00:03:43.380 --> 00:03:49.560
Jace Valcore: As far as as that goes. I have not had significant issues. I mean, I came to the University of Houston downtown

00:03:50.820 --> 00:04:07.860
Jace Valcore: Specifically because I had a sense that I, it wouldn't be an issue. Right. Like I specifically chose this place I during my interview process. I was open. At the time I was identifying as gender queer. Now I'm just more, you know, trans guy. Um, but

00:04:08.910 --> 00:04:19.830
Jace Valcore: You know I made sure that they were aware of who I was and the type of work that I did so that when I got here. It wouldn't be an issue, right, like, but no, that's not a universal experience by any means.

00:04:20.460 --> 00:04:30.210
Tom Baker: Yeah, I've been kind of surprised because I come from, like I was in the military. When I was 18 and then I was in policing and then coming into the academy. I had these

00:04:30.600 --> 00:04:37.260
Tom Baker: preconceived notions about the academy as being this like Uber accepting environment where

00:04:38.220 --> 00:04:57.540
Tom Baker: class and race were and and status and hierarchy were frowned upon, and they were trying to get this new but come to find that I can honestly say that my the military and police department, in my experience, took thing like issues of like racial inequality.

00:04:59.010 --> 00:05:02.430
Tom Baker: Like they spent a lot more time trying to address them. And like

00:05:03.540 --> 00:05:06.930
Tom Baker: Maybe the problems are worse than those, I'm sure.

00:05:06.990 --> 00:05:08.190
Tom Baker: That they are in many respects.

00:05:08.490 --> 00:05:12.420
Tom Baker: But I've been kind of surprised. I've been kind of surprised. So I just thought it was interesting that you would say that

00:05:12.660 --> 00:05:16.410
Tom Baker: That was one of the things, because in one of the things that drew me to the Academy, as well as I thought.

00:05:16.710 --> 00:05:17.370
Tom Baker: You know, this is a

00:05:18.450 --> 00:05:23.580
Tom Baker: But it's not. It is not, it's not monolithic so everyone's everyone's talking about

00:05:25.170 --> 00:05:26.370
Tom Baker: Police Reform.

00:05:27.480 --> 00:05:30.180
Tom Baker: Abolishing the police defending the police change.

00:05:30.240 --> 00:05:32.910
Tom Baker: fundamentally changing the structure of policing in the United

00:05:32.910 --> 00:05:37.500
Tom Baker: States and it's been discussed mostly recently along sort of

00:05:37.680 --> 00:05:43.710
Tom Baker: You know race in America and and sort of solving that you know centuries old

00:05:45.750 --> 00:05:46.980
Tom Baker: Healing that centuries old movie.

00:05:47.370 --> 00:05:51.570
Tom Baker: But there are lots of other things going on at policing and this is a moment where we can, I think,

00:05:51.840 --> 00:05:53.970
Tom Baker: Say, what other things do we want to

00:05:53.970 --> 00:05:57.180
Tom Baker: For what other changes do we want to make. I think that's what's what's happening anyway.

00:05:57.540 --> 00:05:57.960
Jace Valcore: Can you

00:05:58.050 --> 00:05:59.370
Tom Baker: Tell us a little bit about

00:06:01.350 --> 00:06:07.230
Tom Baker: The history of the relationship between the police and the transgender community of the United States.

00:06:07.260 --> 00:06:09.030
Tom Baker: He tells me a little bit about that. History

00:06:09.930 --> 00:06:11.310
Jace Valcore: Yeah, sure. So

00:06:14.250 --> 00:06:16.620
Jace Valcore: I mean, so please seen as a

00:06:18.420 --> 00:06:21.060
Jace Valcore: An issue a project in the US.

00:06:22.350 --> 00:06:30.570
Jace Valcore: You know, the issues that we have for it all come from the same place right it as an institution. It was designed to be

00:06:32.070 --> 00:06:46.620
Jace Valcore: An element of social control right and that obviously was initially and most severely has been used on racial lines, but it's also a tool of social control when it comes to gender and sexuality norms.

00:06:48.600 --> 00:06:49.290
Jace Valcore: So,

00:06:51.300 --> 00:06:55.110
Jace Valcore: So yeah, it's, it's a frog history. It's a negative history. It's not a positive one.

00:06:56.190 --> 00:06:57.480
Jace Valcore: By any means.

00:06:59.520 --> 00:07:06.180
Jace Valcore: It's, it's shifting as all things are, but for a long time, you know, police were used.

00:07:07.770 --> 00:07:12.960
Jace Valcore: So like in the 20th century us. For example, it was very common for

00:07:14.070 --> 00:07:20.580
Jace Valcore: Cities to have cross dressing laws cross dressing ordinances and police

00:07:23.040 --> 00:07:33.390
Jace Valcore: were tasked with, you know, like in Houston, for example, the HP days by squad specifically was tasked with going into the to the neighborhood to neighborhood.

00:07:34.440 --> 00:07:37.830
Jace Valcore: And, you know, rounding up transgender women rounding up

00:07:39.570 --> 00:07:46.800
Jace Valcore: Which lesbian women who who were wearing too many articles have of quote unquote male clothing. Right. That was common

00:07:47.940 --> 00:07:54.600
Jace Valcore: Rating police rating the gay bars. I'm sure most people by now are familiar with that history.

00:07:55.770 --> 00:07:57.720
Jace Valcore: At least I've heard of it are familiar with different

00:07:58.740 --> 00:08:06.600
Jace Valcore: You know, protests and uprising against the police rates that were happening all across the country stone walls. The most famous one. But there was a couple others like

00:08:07.410 --> 00:08:21.180
Jace Valcore: A Compton cafeteria and in San Francisco and Black Cat Tavern in Los Angeles. That happened before Stonewall, um, well yeah please would would just go into to the gay bars to the LGBT Q bars.

00:08:23.370 --> 00:08:25.260
Jace Valcore: And arrest people for

00:08:26.580 --> 00:08:27.630
Jace Valcore: resisting arrest.

00:08:28.740 --> 00:08:32.670
Jace Valcore: Like they would just basically come up with with with things and and they would

00:08:35.220 --> 00:08:36.630
Jace Valcore: You know, they would come up with like

00:08:37.800 --> 00:08:45.570
Jace Valcore: Not big currency was the OH indecency like very general broad and decency statutes that they would apply and things like that.

00:08:48.720 --> 00:08:55.050
Jace Valcore: Yeah, so that's, I mean that's not internet history that's that's in the lifetime of a lot. Most people who are alive right now.

00:08:56.580 --> 00:08:57.630
Tom Baker: Yeah, we're not talking about

00:08:58.590 --> 00:08:59.400
Tom Baker: Five years ago.

00:08:59.520 --> 00:09:02.850
Jace Valcore: Yeah, yeah, no, we're talking like 6070s 80s.

00:09:03.900 --> 00:09:04.740
Jace Valcore: Houston's

00:09:05.850 --> 00:09:14.640
Jace Valcore: cross dressing ordinance wasn't repealed until 1980 so you know it hasn't been that long and culturally, socially, right.

00:09:15.240 --> 00:09:26.520
Jace Valcore: All the stereotypes and conceptions of transgender people as being deviant as being criminals did not go away. They were not erased. Just because that specific law was removed from the books.

00:09:28.500 --> 00:09:31.080
Jace Valcore: So I don't know if you want me to go jump into present day.

00:09:32.310 --> 00:09:45.330
Tom Baker: Well, I think it's I think it's well i think what you touched on, you touched on, like, why the police were this i think i you sort of like weren't quite sure what to call it was our project and I agree, like

00:09:46.050 --> 00:09:47.370
Tom Baker: What it is, I don't know.

00:09:47.520 --> 00:09:57.120
Tom Baker: But I think that when I read the when I read about the the origins of modern Metropolitan Police departments in England and the United States.

00:09:57.540 --> 00:10:16.080
Tom Baker: There something that emerged to create an environment that's conducive to commerce and capital and business and you know this, the Industrial Revolution comes along and we have all these people and and we create this mechanism to control people

00:10:16.470 --> 00:10:22.380
Tom Baker: And drive them into what the society views as productive, you know, ways of living.

00:10:22.770 --> 00:10:30.030
Tom Baker: And that that that extends into, like, so that's extends into like racially racially segregated people but but in terms of

00:10:30.300 --> 00:10:41.460
Tom Baker: sexuality and gender and these issues that it's the State wanted people to live a certain way and it was the police who were out enforcing that with violence.

00:10:41.820 --> 00:10:45.630
Tom Baker: So this is, this is not just asking people to live a certain way, but

00:10:45.990 --> 00:10:56.190
Tom Baker: Having men mostly men, armed with clubs and sticks and beating people and arresting people. So this is a violent history and it's and it's relatively new, can you can you

00:10:56.580 --> 00:11:08.850
Tom Baker: So that's what we, that's what we're we have as a history. Can you now so that he said move into what is it today in America. How does, how does police manage this today.

00:11:10.260 --> 00:11:11.970
Jace Valcore: Right, so I'm

00:11:13.320 --> 00:11:20.400
Jace Valcore: Really not much has changed. Unfortunately, I mean there are attempts, for sure. There are agencies.

00:11:22.170 --> 00:11:23.310
Jace Valcore: Around the country.

00:11:24.390 --> 00:11:26.310
Jace Valcore: Houston Atlanta.

00:11:27.960 --> 00:11:39.060
Jace Valcore: Off top my head that have been in the news specifically because they are trying to address the issue and to train their officers to to respectfully interact with the transgender community.

00:11:40.440 --> 00:11:43.470
Jace Valcore: You know, but that's not even close to being universal

00:11:44.610 --> 00:11:49.920
Jace Valcore: And is limited in its effect as, as we know, police training is limited in its positive impact.

00:11:52.890 --> 00:12:09.780
Jace Valcore: But so for the transgender community right now that when it comes to police interactions. They are still very much being criminalized and and treated as deviant especially trans women trans women of color in particular.

00:12:12.480 --> 00:12:24.270
Jace Valcore: A lot of people have probably heard the term driving while black, which relates to, you know, black people being indiscriminately pulled over for pre textual stops and things like that without, you know, cause

00:12:24.840 --> 00:12:30.270
Jace Valcore: Well in trans community there's something known as walking, while trans, which refers to the

00:12:32.160 --> 00:12:45.090
Jace Valcore: The frequent occasion in which trans women especially trans women of color are stopped on the police stopped by police while they're walking down the street questioned harassed and sometimes arrested.

00:12:46.560 --> 00:12:48.480
Jace Valcore: Under the assumption that they are sex workers.

00:12:50.760 --> 00:12:51.840
Jace Valcore: And, you know, police will

00:12:54.330 --> 00:12:59.070
Jace Valcore: Yeah, so that that's a universal problem. I'm like, there's a couple. There's only one

00:13:00.720 --> 00:13:10.770
Jace Valcore: Study or one survey that we can say is like nationally representative of the trans community. And that's the 2015 us trends survey from the National Center on Transgender Equality.

00:13:13.020 --> 00:13:14.820
Jace Valcore: And it highlights this exact problem.

00:13:15.960 --> 00:13:19.320
Jace Valcore: About one third of trans women.

00:13:21.540 --> 00:13:40.260
Jace Valcore: Say that they've experienced this exact thing of being stopped and question or harassed or arrested by police even higher numbers 60% of trans people report that they have been mistreated by police, just in general, whether it was something like being purposely Miss gender.

00:13:41.520 --> 00:13:43.740
Jace Valcore: Or all the way up to, you know, physical and sexual assault.

00:13:44.850 --> 00:13:48.480
Jace Valcore: And that's ridiculously high percentage that no one should be okay with

00:13:51.780 --> 00:13:58.980
Jace Valcore: Yeah, so that's that's that's core core issue. And it's also why why you see

00:14:00.420 --> 00:14:06.090
Jace Valcore: I mean we're. Luckily, thankfully, people are starting to get a more accurate sense of history.

00:14:06.720 --> 00:14:21.510
Jace Valcore: Both for the black community and the trans community at the same time right now because as we have to frequently remind people, you know, Stonewall was started by trans women of color, Marsha P Johnson Sylvia Rivera, who led that

00:14:23.250 --> 00:14:27.420
Jace Valcore: You know, trans women of color have have been at the forefront of a lot of these movements.

00:14:28.650 --> 00:14:41.070
Jace Valcore: Black women in in specifically but scholars have been at the writing about abolition and police reform for decades and decades and decades and just, no one's listening to them until now, right. So, um,

00:14:42.270 --> 00:14:46.440
Tom Baker: Can you so so this so so you're seeing this as

00:14:47.400 --> 00:14:55.950
Tom Baker: So there's this there's this history and and you're saying that hasn't really changed just maybe like different statutes are being used to enforce things

00:14:56.220 --> 00:15:08.550
Tom Baker: Maybe they're different environment, but at a fundamental level, you still have basically an armed force trying to control people's human your truck control human beings for who they are.

00:15:09.960 --> 00:15:22.200
Tom Baker: But I think it's interesting that you talk about the brokers, I, I say like the transgender community like it's this group of money. This model. Let the group of people who experienced things in the same way if you're. Can you talk a little bit about

00:15:23.370 --> 00:15:41.850
Tom Baker: How like intersection ality so so if I'm, if I'm a trans woman who lives in a wealthy community and I'm white. And I have a job making good money either. It's the installation. Can you just talk a little bit about the intersection ality of of the experience

00:15:42.390 --> 00:16:01.500
Jace Valcore: Of course, yeah. So yeah, all of this is is enter and our sexual. Of course, I mean like I am a white trans man. So I am extremely privileged over trans women in general and definitely trans people of color. So, like, one of the things

00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:15.930
Jace Valcore: That is also notable about trans community is that they have disproportionately high rates of unemployment and you know housing insecurity homelessness.

00:16:18.660 --> 00:16:20.490
Jace Valcore: Because they they struggle.

00:16:21.690 --> 00:16:31.830
Jace Valcore: To to hold jobs to to to get jobs, you know, just we just had a Supreme Court case Supreme Court ruling about this, you know,

00:16:34.350 --> 00:16:42.600
Jace Valcore: Emphasizing the LGBT Q people including trans people have federal protections and employment, but there's still no law.

00:16:43.650 --> 00:16:45.120
Jace Valcore: There's still no federal law. There's still

00:16:46.620 --> 00:16:55.800
Jace Valcore: I don't even know how many states 3020 some odd states that don't have that law on the books, protecting house we teach you people Texas was one of those technically

00:16:56.700 --> 00:17:03.960
Jace Valcore: My university could fire me simply because I'm trans. They won't do that. Obviously, they have their own policies, their own standards.

00:17:04.530 --> 00:17:19.200
Jace Valcore: And I wouldn't be here. You know, but technically they could and I would have no i would have no redress except for a federal lawsuit, which obviously the average person cannot afford does not have the time or resources to go through

00:17:21.120 --> 00:17:21.720
Jace Valcore: So,

00:17:24.150 --> 00:17:27.180
Jace Valcore: Yeah, that's, that's a major issue. And that's obviously relates to

00:17:29.370 --> 00:17:37.980
Jace Valcore: Why a lot of trans women don't have jobs, why they do end up on the streets and I mean they're just targeted for

00:17:39.390 --> 00:17:46.140
Jace Valcore: For violence at disproportionate rates, whether it's from police officer or from someone they need on the street trans women of color.

00:17:46.560 --> 00:17:57.870
Jace Valcore: Are murdered at extraordinarily extraordinary high rates and one of the worst things about it is that they're they're murders are often the most like brutal horrifying things that you can think of.

00:17:59.850 --> 00:18:04.890
Jace Valcore: All because some guy freaks out or you know

00:18:06.090 --> 00:18:11.400
Jace Valcore: Has some messed up notion of his masculinity and his sexuality.

00:18:13.980 --> 00:18:20.220
Jace Valcore: And because of our social stereotypes of trans people.

00:18:23.250 --> 00:18:37.950
Jace Valcore: You know they're they're not seen as human. They're not seen as equal. They're not seen as people worthy of respect. So disposing of them and violent ways, you know that's that's the consequence of

00:18:39.150 --> 00:18:39.780
Jace Valcore: Of that

00:18:42.090 --> 00:18:44.130
Jace Valcore: So yeah, it's, it's very, very, very

00:18:46.770 --> 00:19:02.220
Jace Valcore: People, people who who do know a little bit probably get it from the media. Right. So they have they have distorted understanding because they see someone like Caitlyn Jenner or Laverne Cox and they're like, oh, you know, they're successful they're

00:19:03.690 --> 00:19:11.670
Jace Valcore: You know, they haven't had any issues transitioning or, you know, anything like that. But obviously, they are not typical. You know,

00:19:12.120 --> 00:19:17.490
Jace Valcore: As they are wealthy. They are famous, they are all of those things that the average person is not

00:19:18.630 --> 00:19:21.600
Jace Valcore: So assuming that their stories.

00:19:24.090 --> 00:19:25.740
Jace Valcore: Are the norm is definitely

00:19:27.000 --> 00:19:29.010
Jace Valcore: A definitely you know definitely a big mistake.

00:19:30.930 --> 00:19:31.590
Jace Valcore: I mean even

00:19:33.030 --> 00:19:43.020
Jace Valcore: Even for trans men so trans men are advantage because masculinity is advantaged in in our society. So it's much easier for us to transition

00:19:44.370 --> 00:19:50.040
Jace Valcore: We are less likely to be questioned and harassed and and stuff. Once we have transition

00:19:52.740 --> 00:19:57.030
Jace Valcore: But it's different for me as a white guy than it is for for

00:19:58.140 --> 00:19:58.560
Jace Valcore: Some of

00:19:59.910 --> 00:20:04.980
Jace Valcore: trans guys I know no of color. Like for me, transitioning has given me.

00:20:06.060 --> 00:20:10.320
Jace Valcore: A sense of safety and security and confidence in public spaces that I did not have before.

00:20:10.650 --> 00:20:11.880
Tom Baker: Because you're about yo yo

00:20:11.940 --> 00:20:14.280
Jace Valcore: Yes, because now that I am readily

00:20:14.910 --> 00:20:35.700
Jace Valcore: seen and treated as a white man Well hey you know that's that puts me at the top right, but if you are switching and and now being read and perceived as a black man. All of a sudden you are at risk and you are viewed as a criminal and a threat, and so your transition is not as

00:20:36.720 --> 00:20:43.860
Jace Valcore: Do you know does not have come along with the same sense of safety and security that I get that I get to go through. So yeah, there's all kinds of

00:20:45.510 --> 00:20:50.670
Jace Valcore: It's definitely no such thing as a universal trans experience.

00:20:50.850 --> 00:20:59.580
Tom Baker: You know, I hadn't I hadn't thought about the fact that, like a transition could be could play someone in a position where they feel less

00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:08.490
Tom Baker: Threatened I was I was all over the difficulties of transitioning and managing those things. But it could put you in a position where you walk into a space and you don't feel

00:21:08.910 --> 00:21:24.390
Tom Baker: as vulnerable as you did before so that's that's fascinating. So you just talked about how there's a ton of variability in of experience within the United States within our culture based on, you know, other components of your identity.

00:21:24.420 --> 00:21:32.190
Tom Baker: Because we're all human beings are complex, they have all these various identities, you talk a little bit about and I just I think this gets out that this is a construction.

00:21:32.250 --> 00:21:41.790
Tom Baker: This is like we're making this shit up. Like, we're like how we how we can see the human beings is different across time and space.

00:21:42.210 --> 00:21:56.400
Tom Baker: Can you talk a little bit about maybe how just so that people know that the way we can see as a culture conceive of these issues is different, like there are different places in the world today. And they're in different times across history where

00:21:58.050 --> 00:21:59.670
Tom Baker: Can you just talk a little bit about that.

00:21:59.700 --> 00:22:09.480
Jace Valcore: Sure, sure. Um, yeah, so are our understanding of sex and gender and sexuality, all those components of human identity.

00:22:10.650 --> 00:22:16.830
Jace Valcore: Yes, they are not fixed. They change they vary by culture they vary by time.

00:22:19.980 --> 00:22:33.540
Jace Valcore: For for most countries like the United States, England, Australia that have that's similar colonial history of, you know, going in and enslaving people and killing Native people

00:22:35.550 --> 00:22:36.810
Jace Valcore: We have a similar history.

00:22:38.940 --> 00:22:47.850
Jace Valcore: On this point as well because when we did that when our ancestors European ancestors did that in all these various places around the world.

00:22:49.560 --> 00:22:59.250
Jace Valcore: Part of what they brought with them was this very rigid binary sense of sex and gender that then was enforced and, you know, and basically

00:23:01.740 --> 00:23:04.200
Jace Valcore: I mean off top my head. I can't think of

00:23:06.330 --> 00:23:15.990
Jace Valcore: Of a recent I know there's there's a website that that maps that has an interactive map of the world and you can click on different areas and it will pop up.

00:23:16.920 --> 00:23:24.390
Jace Valcore: And give history of different, diverse genders and different ways of which gender was viewed and all these different ways.

00:23:25.320 --> 00:23:37.500
Jace Valcore: In different cultures and different points in history, and there was lots of cultures everywhere. That's that recognized or celebrated third genders, or non binary genders, you know, obviously, they use different language than

00:23:37.560 --> 00:23:39.300
Jace Valcore: Than what we have come up with. Now in our English

00:23:39.330 --> 00:23:39.990
Jace Valcore: Language, but

00:23:41.250 --> 00:23:48.870
Jace Valcore: You know, widely recognized somewhere even celebrated somewhere part of religious ceremonies, some of them you know we're religious leaders, whatever, like

00:23:49.380 --> 00:24:04.500
Jace Valcore: And then the white European colonials come in and just destroy all of it right they do everything they can to erase it and they use it as an excuse for that eraser that these people are abnormal they're they're savages, they're, you know, they're freaks, whatever.

00:24:06.840 --> 00:24:10.260
Jace Valcore: And they use that excuse. Yeah. For the criminalization, and for the ratio

00:24:12.840 --> 00:24:13.410
Jace Valcore: So, yeah.

00:24:15.660 --> 00:24:16.620
Jace Valcore: That's how we ended up

00:24:18.150 --> 00:24:19.140
Jace Valcore: You know where we are.

00:24:20.700 --> 00:24:21.870
Jace Valcore: In the US culture.

00:24:24.660 --> 00:24:26.820
Jace Valcore: And it's just extended throughout time

00:24:28.590 --> 00:24:28.830
Jace Valcore: We

00:24:30.180 --> 00:24:37.770
Jace Valcore: You know, it's part of the same, it's, it's very closely linked to white supremacy and white.

00:24:40.080 --> 00:24:45.210
Jace Valcore: It's not just about race. It's also about masculinity and gender.

00:24:46.680 --> 00:24:52.710
Jace Valcore: The two are hetero patriarchy as a phrase Angela Davis uses a lot that I'm a fan of

00:24:54.000 --> 00:25:03.750
Jace Valcore: It's the same thing says genderism hetero sexism white supremacy. It's all comes from the same root, the same same source in place.

00:25:06.090 --> 00:25:07.860
Tom Baker: But it's a doll at the dominant so

00:25:08.490 --> 00:25:09.120
Jace Valcore: It's a yeah

00:25:09.300 --> 00:25:15.330
Tom Baker: If you want to like I read a great book about the conquest, and it was

00:25:16.020 --> 00:25:31.470
Tom Baker: Called body of the key store and it was talking about how during the conquest, the Spanish Government had all these rules and regulations about what people coming to the New World, could the new world could could eat.

00:25:32.100 --> 00:25:44.400
Tom Baker: And the thought was is that if you're eating these native too many of these native foods, your, your humours are going to be screwed up, and you're going to turn into a savage, you're going to descend.

00:25:44.550 --> 00:25:54.900
Tom Baker: Into this other so it was about constructing human bodies in this ongoing process of reconstructing the human body and the New World, and

00:25:55.140 --> 00:25:56.850
Tom Baker: controlling behavior.

00:25:57.150 --> 00:26:01.290
Tom Baker: As a way to maintain control over geographic space.

00:26:01.620 --> 00:26:07.140
Tom Baker: So it makes sense that when you fast flash forward to the 21st century that in the United States.

00:26:07.680 --> 00:26:08.130
Tom Baker: That there's a

00:26:08.460 --> 00:26:10.050
Tom Baker: There's going to be a continued concerted

00:26:10.080 --> 00:26:11.220
Jace Valcore: Effort to control

00:26:11.430 --> 00:26:14.730
Tom Baker: Human beings. And that's going to be what we eat, who we have sex with

00:26:14.880 --> 00:26:18.900
Tom Baker: How we have babies, how we raise them the Qatar we raise our families are constructed

00:26:19.140 --> 00:26:25.020
Tom Baker: In because people in power. Want to I think they feel compelled to shape and exert that

00:26:25.680 --> 00:26:27.240
Tom Baker: Why else get power if it's

00:26:27.270 --> 00:26:27.930
Jace Valcore: Not yeah

00:26:28.080 --> 00:26:28.890
Jace Valcore: Exercise. Yeah.

00:26:29.460 --> 00:26:33.150
Tom Baker: And so this so i don't i'm sorry I'm ranting a little off.

00:26:34.230 --> 00:26:40.620
Tom Baker: But this this the changes. So if somebody today is listening to this and maybe they're not familiar with these

00:26:40.860 --> 00:26:45.090
Tom Baker: These issues they haven't thought about it. They don't know somebody personally they, you know,

00:26:46.080 --> 00:26:51.300
Tom Baker: And they see these changes and it's threatening to them. Is it shouldn't they just look at this and say,

00:26:51.720 --> 00:27:06.780
Tom Baker: Call this is a this is a construct this is some thing like some stuff we've made up some ways we thought about interpreting it and times the way we should we should evolve and change and the way we conceive of them as we learn more about human. Human beings and

00:27:08.070 --> 00:27:12.450
Tom Baker: I mean, is this what's happening. Are we experiencing a change right now. And the way you conceive of these things.

00:27:13.560 --> 00:27:14.040
Jace Valcore: Um,

00:27:16.110 --> 00:27:18.960
Jace Valcore: I mean, we're getting there. We're, we're getting there.

00:27:21.030 --> 00:27:25.260
Jace Valcore: I'm still got a long ways to go. I think

00:27:26.730 --> 00:27:31.830
Jace Valcore: So there's a couple different things that happen, both on an individual level social level cultural level.

00:27:33.660 --> 00:27:54.120
Jace Valcore: Is that as human beings we we tend to get very attached to our belief systems and to what we perceive to be right and wrong or normal or abnormal and you know the whole process of socialization and even how these things get wired into our brain as we develop

00:27:56.250 --> 00:28:02.520
Jace Valcore: It's very difficult for some people to let go of these things, especially if they are somehow benefiting from it.

00:28:02.700 --> 00:28:04.470
Jace Valcore: Right. And so this is

00:28:06.960 --> 00:28:09.090
Jace Valcore: An unfortunate issue we're having right now with

00:28:11.310 --> 00:28:15.090
Jace Valcore: With a particular group of feminist who are

00:28:16.740 --> 00:28:21.750
Jace Valcore: You know, not open to to recognizing trans men and women as men and women.

00:28:22.800 --> 00:28:28.800
Jace Valcore: And they they come from a perspective of feminism, that is that is very

00:28:29.820 --> 00:28:40.380
Jace Valcore: It's very personal to them and to the to their perspective of protecting women from men, and they are

00:28:42.540 --> 00:28:44.940
Jace Valcore: They have a very specific view of feminism

00:28:45.960 --> 00:28:50.010
Jace Valcore: That doesn't have room for for intersection ality is

00:28:51.180 --> 00:28:52.020
Jace Valcore: You know, even

00:28:53.280 --> 00:28:57.330
Jace Valcore: Even women of color get left behind in in in some of their

00:28:57.360 --> 00:28:58.110
Jace Valcore: Their arguments.

00:28:59.010 --> 00:29:03.240
Jace Valcore: Because they are unfortunately attached to

00:29:04.320 --> 00:29:15.780
Jace Valcore: The police system and the patriarchal system and what they view as protecting them and helping them when there's plenty of documentation that shows that it is not doing that.

00:29:16.950 --> 00:29:20.520
Jace Valcore: You know, especially like with domestic violence and rape and sexual assault.

00:29:21.930 --> 00:29:27.720
Jace Valcore: Our laws and police have done very little of good or positive in those in those realms.

00:29:28.860 --> 00:29:29.760
Jace Valcore: And yet they

00:29:30.810 --> 00:29:38.700
Jace Valcore: Are attached to that system as it is. And so they fight very hard against this notion of

00:29:39.990 --> 00:29:46.410
Jace Valcore: Of trans women actually being men who are invading women's bathrooms and things like that.

00:29:47.880 --> 00:29:59.550
Jace Valcore: Right. Like, it's very and these are is, these aren't just activists, these are scholars. These are people with PhDs who who make these arguments still today. Yeah. So we have a long way to go.

00:30:00.930 --> 00:30:02.310
Jace Valcore: On these things. It's all

00:30:02.310 --> 00:30:04.020
Tom Baker: being overly optimistic.

00:30:04.380 --> 00:30:07.080
Jace Valcore: Yeah yeah i mean

00:30:08.400 --> 00:30:10.080
Jace Valcore: Yeah, okay.

00:30:10.140 --> 00:30:11.970
Jace Valcore: I appreciate that I

00:30:13.140 --> 00:30:18.150
Tom Baker: I'm not. I'm rarely accused of being optimistic but I think in this case, maybe I'm maybe I'm right so

00:30:19.650 --> 00:30:30.510
Tom Baker: So let's talk about that. So like change. So we have this brutal history of oppression and we have a struggle that's ongoing and

00:30:32.190 --> 00:30:37.320
Tom Baker: We want to change you gave me a little bit of a couple things to read one of them was about training.

00:30:37.860 --> 00:30:38.340
Tom Baker: So,

00:30:38.580 --> 00:30:49.320
Tom Baker: Like right now I here with policing policing sort of my my thing and use of force and I, you know, and I find myself saying train, train, train, train, train, train, train, we can solve a lot, which

00:30:49.680 --> 00:31:01.770
Tom Baker: I do believe that training can be helpful in many respects, for many for many things, but it's not it's not necessarily the cure all, can you can you talk a little bit about

00:31:02.910 --> 00:31:05.610
Tom Baker: The study you gave me about

00:31:06.900 --> 00:31:13.650
Tom Baker: This baby. The Central Research question and and how they went about answering answering the research question. Yeah. Australia.

00:31:14.280 --> 00:31:16.920
Jace Valcore: Yeah. So yeah, I gave you an article from

00:31:18.600 --> 00:31:20.190
Jace Valcore: Toby Myles Johnson.

00:31:21.240 --> 00:31:28.260
Jace Valcore: In Australia, because there isn't an identical study like that in the US that I'm aware of. Because we're behind or behind on this.

00:31:29.700 --> 00:31:31.890
Jace Valcore: I mean that study was published like four years ago.

00:31:32.130 --> 00:31:34.590
Tom Baker: We're behind about a lot of things. Yeah, yeah.

00:31:35.730 --> 00:31:46.710
Jace Valcore: So yeah, he was able to to do participant observations. So, you know, field work where he actually went in sat in observed

00:31:47.730 --> 00:31:59.160
Jace Valcore: A police training as it was going on in which officers were being trained on how to interact with the transgender community right basically like trans one on one kind of thing for them.

00:32:01.710 --> 00:32:03.060
Jace Valcore: And he observed

00:32:04.620 --> 00:32:06.000
Jace Valcore: Yeah, basically what

00:32:08.640 --> 00:32:16.020
Jace Valcore: It, what is going on in America as well as with these kinds of police trainings. I was actually part of one

00:32:17.130 --> 00:32:27.270
Jace Valcore: Last year I got to be a co instructor for the Houston Police Department as they were doing their mandatory in service training on transgender

00:32:28.320 --> 00:32:29.610
Jace Valcore: Issues and hate crimes.

00:32:32.070 --> 00:32:44.490
Jace Valcore: They wanted a an actual trans person involved. So I did a lot of those trainings, along with a a sergeant in the department who was my new LGBT Q liaison officer. So the two of us.

00:32:45.660 --> 00:32:55.590
Jace Valcore: You know tag teams to trainings and it went really well. Not at first, not at first, but eventually got figured out where it went pretty smoothly.

00:32:57.870 --> 00:32:59.580
Jace Valcore: But yeah, there's a lot of

00:33:00.690 --> 00:33:19.110
Jace Valcore: reticence, there's a lot of pushback. There's a lot of of officers who will just some will openly argue with you and most will just sit their arms crossed, you know, stern look on their face, like, I don't care. I'm not going to change. And that's the case. Like even the sergeant.

00:33:21.600 --> 00:33:35.370
Jace Valcore: You know she she was very protective of me because she knew, and we saw you know some of the things that that happened questions people would ask an appropriate questions we tried to head that off, you know, by you know by giving them.

00:33:37.200 --> 00:33:37.560
Jace Valcore: You know,

00:33:38.820 --> 00:33:41.790
Jace Valcore: But sometimes it will still happen anyway um

00:33:43.890 --> 00:33:46.980
Jace Valcore: You know, the age, the age of the officers did you find that

00:33:47.040 --> 00:33:50.310
Tom Baker: It was there was difference in the in the ages of like the ages.

00:33:51.540 --> 00:34:00.060
Jace Valcore: You know, I used to make that generalization. A lot. Um, that we just need to wait for the older generations to, you know, retire and die off. Um,

00:34:00.870 --> 00:34:13.440
Jace Valcore: And I think that I think there's, I think there's some element of validity to that, but it's not universal, by any means. It definitely shouldn't be used as an excuse for older people who refuse to learn or change.

00:34:14.730 --> 00:34:22.410
Jace Valcore: But yeah, it was a mixed experience like like we would. I would talk with this officer and she'd be like, you know, half of the people in the room.

00:34:23.460 --> 00:34:31.620
Jace Valcore: aren't going to change right like like this this two and a half hour training is not going to take someone who's trans phobic or homophobic, and make them a better person, it's not

00:34:32.520 --> 00:34:42.000
Jace Valcore: So we really emphasized like just. This is what it means for your job. This is what you have to do to be a good officer. This is what you want to do if you want to keep your job in this department right like

00:34:42.510 --> 00:34:51.360
Jace Valcore: We weren't out to change their minds and beliefs, because we knew that we couldn't. And even if we tried like everything. It would just blow up in our faces right like

00:34:52.740 --> 00:34:57.090
Jace Valcore: So we never even we didn't even really try like she started right off with that.

00:34:57.600 --> 00:35:07.530
Jace Valcore: From the forefront and realized that it put people at ease, if we if we if we laid out there right in the front that you know we're not here to challenge your beliefs.

00:35:08.400 --> 00:35:24.060
Jace Valcore: They would come down. You know, like there was even one time where a guy was sitting in the front row with his Bible open and as soon as she gave her little intro he closed it and just sat there and didn't say anything to do anything for the next two hours, right, like so.

00:35:25.260 --> 00:35:32.520
Jace Valcore: You have to be practical, you have to be realistic about these trainings and and the limitations of their impact.

00:35:33.960 --> 00:35:35.100
Jace Valcore: Yes, you can.

00:35:36.240 --> 00:35:46.080
Jace Valcore: Train them on how to ask for the correct pronouns and how to, you know. Don't make assumptions based off the driver's license and, you know, very practical things on how to interact with people.

00:35:46.530 --> 00:35:53.370
Jace Valcore: That doesn't mean they're going to become an advocate for LGBT Q people like it's just not going to have been right like

00:35:55.470 --> 00:36:00.300
Jace Valcore: So there's limitations. Like, even I have to give this example because it just gets me so much.

00:36:00.420 --> 00:36:01.080
Tom Baker: Please, please.

00:36:01.470 --> 00:36:02.820
Jace Valcore: So the DOJ

00:36:04.260 --> 00:36:18.030
Jace Valcore: A few years ago, I want to say this is like four years ago now, they made a video under their community policing office. I'm a training video for law enforcement on how to interact with the transgender community. It's a great video as far as

00:36:19.200 --> 00:36:24.600
Jace Valcore: You know, it gives basic definitions. It has actual trans people involved to explain their

00:36:25.230 --> 00:36:32.400
Jace Valcore: Their identity their experience, their, their feelings about law enforcement and then it gives three really common scenarios, a traffic stop.

00:36:33.120 --> 00:36:41.550
Jace Valcore: Are reported like assault and I'm someone calling because they think there's a man in the women's restroom. Right.

00:36:41.820 --> 00:36:54.150
Jace Valcore: And it just shows them. This is the appropriate way to response. This is way to handle it. There's no need to escalate things that don't aren't even a violation of the law. Right, very straightforward. It was recorded using the

00:36:56.160 --> 00:36:56.700
Jace Valcore: The

00:36:58.290 --> 00:37:07.920
Jace Valcore: What is the name of the department, the Prince Albert something department that's near in Virginia or

00:37:09.180 --> 00:37:15.300
Jace Valcore: Man, I hate myself I'm forgetting the name of this department, but it was recorded using them and their officers and

00:37:17.130 --> 00:37:22.320
Jace Valcore: And then just a couple years later that exact department is in the news.

00:37:23.460 --> 00:37:39.180
Jace Valcore: For anti trans violence and and harassment, so like that's I think a pretty good example of like you can use this department as like the model for your training video, but it does not mean

00:37:40.020 --> 00:37:46.500
Jace Valcore: That these attitudes and beliefs don't continue and that they don't come through in in police interactions. Right, so

00:37:47.250 --> 00:37:56.460
Tom Baker: Yeah, this idea that you're going to sit people down for two hours and or that they're going to make a video and an afternoon and have some trans folks come in and

00:37:56.550 --> 00:37:57.210
Jace Valcore: That's going to

00:37:57.360 --> 00:38:02.010
Tom Baker: fundamentally change something that's been built over hundreds of years.

00:38:02.130 --> 00:38:04.080
Jace Valcore: And a cold. Yeah, yeah.

00:38:05.190 --> 00:38:11.100
Tom Baker: And in the Australian thing made the article they talked about they talked about how the research is we're kind of like

00:38:12.540 --> 00:38:21.180
Tom Baker: No, I don't think shocked but like a little bit surprised at how little exposure to the material officers have had had had in the past. So they had

00:38:21.720 --> 00:38:31.980
Tom Baker: A training and it's like brand new to them. The officers that you interacted with was this something that was this like first the first time it had been addressed or was. Were you reinforcing prior education.

00:38:32.850 --> 00:38:35.580
Jace Valcore: Oh no, this for most of them. This is the very, very first time.

00:38:37.920 --> 00:38:39.240
Jace Valcore: Yeah, um,

00:38:40.470 --> 00:38:53.520
Jace Valcore: And that's where the generational thing definitely comes in because yeah it oftentimes was older officers who were grouchy grumpy questioning arguing

00:38:54.150 --> 00:39:06.000
Jace Valcore: And then occasionally on the brakes, I would have younger officers come up to me and apologize, like, on behalf of their colleagues, like, you know, I'm sorry. Just ignore those guns, just all jerks, you know,

00:39:06.630 --> 00:39:14.520
Jace Valcore: You know, a lot of us don't feel that way anymore. You know, that's where it's more most evident, because there are yes a lot of

00:39:16.530 --> 00:39:24.150
Jace Valcore: For the best general realization millennials and Gen Z years who are who are now entering law enforcement, um,

00:39:25.530 --> 00:39:36.660
Jace Valcore: Who are more exposed to are more aware, because they have grown up in a different society where they where there's been more visibility more acceptance more education on on gender diversity.

00:39:38.880 --> 00:39:50.520
Jace Valcore: And so, yeah, it's also going to be much easier to train or to create a different police culture with officers who are you have a different mindset.

00:39:50.610 --> 00:40:11.880
Jace Valcore: Right, what we what is I think pretty much impossible is to change a set in mindset of someone who's, who's. Yeah. Who's been doing this work for extended amount of time. Who's, who's very much ingrained into, you know, specific culture and perception of their job and you

00:40:13.440 --> 00:40:15.540
Tom Baker: Know you talked about you're talking about this.

00:40:16.920 --> 00:40:21.630
Tom Baker: I think so. So I observed in my experience in policing, a real

00:40:23.820 --> 00:40:29.160
Tom Baker: Growth of them have a movement for amongst like gay men and gay women in policing.

00:40:29.520 --> 00:40:33.120
Tom Baker: Where people were like pushing by a friend of mine.

00:40:33.120 --> 00:40:33.930
Tom Baker: Who he

00:40:34.560 --> 00:40:42.960
Tom Baker: Posed in uniform in a magazine. A GAY MAGAZINE. It was like a big controversy. Now, that would not be that would be like, oh, he's community.

00:40:42.990 --> 00:40:44.190
Tom Baker: That's community policing.

00:40:44.460 --> 00:40:46.170
Tom Baker: And he rose through the ranks and

00:40:46.440 --> 00:40:50.400
Tom Baker: There's like a whole there's like a support network within there was a support network.

00:40:50.760 --> 00:40:53.280
Tom Baker: Within the department, especially for gay

00:40:53.310 --> 00:40:54.030
Tom Baker: gay women.

00:40:54.510 --> 00:41:03.930
Tom Baker: And you saw people who were gay men and women who are entering the profession. There was a support network in place to make it easier for them.

00:41:04.380 --> 00:41:04.860
Jace Valcore: Like yeah

00:41:05.070 --> 00:41:11.550
Tom Baker: But it had been for the the generation before them and policing. But I think that we touched on about

00:41:12.000 --> 00:41:29.670
Tom Baker: This like it being there are certain there are privileged there people who are may not be conforming to society's quote unquote norm is when it comes to sexuality or gender. But there are some who are able to to it's it's it's much more difficult. So like

00:41:30.420 --> 00:41:37.800
Tom Baker: a gay man or a woman in policing, I think. Nowadays it's still, you know, they're going to encounter discrimination, but I think it's gotten a lot better, whereas

00:41:38.130 --> 00:41:42.000
Tom Baker: For trans folks, I haven't. I didn't see that movement like there were no like

00:41:42.720 --> 00:41:58.110
Tom Baker: There's no like group of trans folks that I knew in my department who were there to welcome new people to the perfect seems to me that we need if we want to really change policing, wouldn't we need to have a push to have trans officers do you have you seen that

00:41:59.280 --> 00:41:59.760
Jace Valcore: I'm

00:42:01.980 --> 00:42:12.030
Jace Valcore: Um, yeah, I mean, obviously, we, we would want to do something to to make it open and safe and accessible for trans officers, um,

00:42:14.250 --> 00:42:18.780
Jace Valcore: But I think it's, it's been happening very much in the same way.

00:42:19.950 --> 00:42:35.430
Jace Valcore: That it did with gay and lesbian officers. If you go back like 20 2030 years ago, you know, gay, lesbian and trans officers have always been there, they've been in our departments, but they just haven't been open. They haven't been safe. It hasn't been safe for them to be out right

00:42:37.200 --> 00:42:37.740
Jace Valcore: But

00:42:39.930 --> 00:42:52.290
Jace Valcore: You know, throughout the 90s, and especially early 2000s, we saw a steady increase because socially, culturally, as a country, right, we were moving in that direction where it was okay and say for gay and lesbian people to be out

00:42:53.550 --> 00:43:01.110
Jace Valcore: So socially and culturally, we have to get there for trans people as well. There are trans officers. I've met a handful

00:43:04.320 --> 00:43:06.120
Jace Valcore: But yeah, they are usually the

00:43:08.490 --> 00:43:12.900
Jace Valcore: Yeah, I haven't actually met one that wasn't the first in their department.

00:43:14.220 --> 00:43:28.770
Jace Valcore: You know where they had to on their own, figure out how to come out at work and figure out, you know, push for policy changes and all of that. So that people behind them wouldn't have to, you know, struggle.

00:43:29.970 --> 00:43:31.380
Tom Baker: With a lot to ask of a person.

00:43:31.380 --> 00:43:31.770

00:43:33.450 --> 00:43:35.940
Jace Valcore: It is. It is, yeah. Um,

00:43:37.260 --> 00:43:39.240
Jace Valcore: But I mean even statistically speaking, though.

00:43:41.340 --> 00:43:49.530
Jace Valcore: But right like trans trans people are like 2% of the population, no less than that one person. I don't even know. We don't know. Right. We don't have no accurate estimate

00:43:50.010 --> 00:43:52.050
Tom Baker: On these number approach or people have different

00:43:52.050 --> 00:43:55.590
Jace Valcore: Dead. Yeah. Yeah. So, um,

00:43:58.020 --> 00:44:07.980
Jace Valcore: Yeah, I mean, and what I think is what I've found to be universally true. So I have. I've done some research on gender and employees scene and specifically LGBT Q officers.

00:44:10.440 --> 00:44:14.070
Jace Valcore: And what what seems to be almost universal with them is that

00:44:17.040 --> 00:44:19.080
Jace Valcore: They really are attached

00:44:20.280 --> 00:44:35.190
Jace Valcore: Or feel strongly about the concept and notion that they just have to be a good cop. They just have to be a good officer do their job well and you know their their their identity won't matter as much. It won't become an issue.

00:44:36.600 --> 00:44:43.770
Jace Valcore: And this especially seems to be the case for for lesbian identified officers, they, they seem to be benefiting

00:44:46.770 --> 00:44:58.290
Jace Valcore: Pretty greatly from the stereotypes of lesbian women as being masculine like they are rising through the ranks. They are becoming commanders and chiefs.

00:44:59.820 --> 00:45:07.500
Jace Valcore: I don't know, statistics, but just from what I have observed, they seem to be doing much better than gay male officers who are still

00:45:09.540 --> 00:45:13.830
Jace Valcore: I mean, I've seen I've seen headlines. I've heard stories I've even had

00:45:15.030 --> 00:45:26.940
Jace Valcore: Lesbian officers from large departments, tell me to my face the other guys aren't going to talk to you. They're not. They're not out there not safe. They're not going to talk to you and they will. Right. We tried and they wouldn't talk to us. So it's

00:45:27.660 --> 00:45:33.300
Jace Valcore: Even even on that level, the stereotypes that we have a gay men is being feminine and week is

00:45:34.650 --> 00:45:45.570
Jace Valcore: And the, the police culture of masculinity being like, you know what, you have to be what you have to do in order to be a good officer, you have to present an act in a certain way.

00:45:46.620 --> 00:45:52.260
Jace Valcore: Is playing to the benefit of lesbian identified officers and to the detriment of female officers.

00:45:55.380 --> 00:46:02.820
Jace Valcore: But that's just what I've observed again now universal, but it seems to be a dynamic that is still very much a play.

00:46:03.990 --> 00:46:16.470
Tom Baker: And you talk about you. Just like you just mentioned. Maybe the reason why lesbian officers are able to navigate the space is because it's such a male dominated profession with

00:46:17.130 --> 00:46:25.980
Tom Baker: preconceived notions about the role of masculinity and effective policing and they talk about that in the in the paper. He sent me about in Australia, this, this.

00:46:26.550 --> 00:46:40.440
Tom Baker: It being a male dominated profession you talk about you just talk about how that works. So how it being male dominated puts up barriers to to for transgender people in the profession and then dealing with police officers.

00:46:43.380 --> 00:46:44.460
Jace Valcore: Yeah, so

00:46:45.840 --> 00:46:50.640
Jace Valcore: So specifically how the male domination relates to trans people and trans officers.

00:46:50.940 --> 00:46:57.420
Tom Baker: Both so i think i think it's yeah it's I think it's, I'm sure it's different, but this this it being a male dominated culture.

00:46:57.600 --> 00:47:05.940
Tom Baker: How that puts up barriers to people interacting with law enforcement in any kind of way even like if you want to be a dispatcher if you want to be an employee. If you want to be an officer if you want to

00:47:06.210 --> 00:47:18.780
Tom Baker: Or if you're being stopped for walking down the street. What is that that the fact that the policing is and it is. I mean jeez such a, it's a male dominated environment, the testosterone and the

00:47:18.810 --> 00:47:19.800
Tom Baker: Much onus

00:47:19.890 --> 00:47:36.750
Tom Baker: I mean it's, it's something you like. I found that I it was easier for me to navigate the social space to get assignments to make friends to be respected by my colleagues, if I acted like a little bit of a meathead, you know, that was, which was easy for me to do.

00:47:38.610 --> 00:47:38.790
Jace Valcore: So,

00:47:39.030 --> 00:47:42.630
Tom Baker: Good. Yeah, go ahead. What do you yeah I know it's a kind of a tough question, but good.

00:47:43.200 --> 00:47:51.930
Jace Valcore: Um, well, I mean, it's just, I mean, yeah, it's like you're saying it's the culture of policing the expectations.

00:47:53.220 --> 00:48:00.270
Jace Valcore: Not just to to hold a position and do the job. But to get along with your coworkers to to to

00:48:01.320 --> 00:48:02.160
Jace Valcore: You know, to be

00:48:04.350 --> 00:48:10.200
Jace Valcore: Like the locker room talk kind of stuff and the social events outside of of work right.

00:48:11.160 --> 00:48:23.280
Jace Valcore: There's been a lot of work on how else we teach you officers are excluded, often from from those kinds of things and how they constantly have to deal with homophobic, and trans phobic language and comments and jokes.

00:48:25.320 --> 00:48:46.140
Jace Valcore: Being made in their presence and and yeah so there's, it's, it's, again, the, the masculine part of policing is attached to the whole notion of power and dominance and control. So it comes through and how they interact with anyone who violates those norms about

00:48:47.580 --> 00:48:48.630
Jace Valcore: A you know a

00:48:49.830 --> 00:48:59.760
Jace Valcore: Someone assigned a female at birth, has to be feminine and has to be woman and someone assigned male at birth, has to be masculine and has to be a man. Right. People who violate those norms.

00:49:01.980 --> 00:49:06.210
Jace Valcore: Yeah, are definitely at high risk for coming under the

00:49:08.310 --> 00:49:11.010
Jace Valcore: The guys in control of law enforcement.

00:49:12.480 --> 00:49:18.300
Jace Valcore: You know who who see that violation and for whatever reason perceive it to be a threat to the social order.

00:49:19.620 --> 00:49:21.690
Jace Valcore: A threat to maintaining social control.

00:49:23.730 --> 00:49:26.310
Tom Baker: Because the in group out group like where you

00:49:26.880 --> 00:49:43.620
Jace Valcore: Are. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, so I think a lot of people probably heard of the us versus them mentality in policing and it's not just about police being the good guys and criminals being the bad guys. It's, it's, yeah. It's also extends to

00:49:44.640 --> 00:49:48.180
Jace Valcore: Policing being a white, heterosexual male

00:49:49.530 --> 00:49:52.050
Jace Valcore: Profession occupation culture, whatever.

00:49:53.520 --> 00:49:58.410
Jace Valcore: And even in these police trains like this article that I gave you

00:49:59.640 --> 00:50:05.160
Jace Valcore: A good portion of the officers in the room in the training identified as gay or lesbian

00:50:05.850 --> 00:50:17.820
Jace Valcore: And yet everyone else in the room just kind of ignored that and acted like they weren't there and continued on with their homophobic, and trans phobic comments and jokes. And speaking of

00:50:18.660 --> 00:50:34.680
Jace Valcore: Police as assumed assumed to be sis gender heterosexual and them referring to anyone else who is not since gender and heterosexual and and it's such a part like you have to

00:50:36.300 --> 00:50:51.090
Jace Valcore: It's such a part of the culture and the acceptance for an officer that they even though there was a considerable number of them in that room. None of them felt like they could speak up and correct these these comments and derogatory jokes that were being made like

00:50:53.730 --> 00:50:54.780
Jace Valcore: So yeah, that's

00:50:56.040 --> 00:50:57.630
Jace Valcore: It's all part of the same

00:50:58.710 --> 00:51:00.420
Jace Valcore: Yeah us versus them mentality.

00:51:01.740 --> 00:51:09.090
Tom Baker: So when you view. So like this reminds me of experience, experience I had so i when i was i was a new officer and

00:51:09.450 --> 00:51:15.780
Tom Baker: Responding as a domestic violence call and I worked in a migrant community. So it was a woman from Mexico, her husband had

00:51:16.200 --> 00:51:24.960
Tom Baker: You know slapped her in the face a few times and she had like a little bit of bruising and swelling he broken a couple things and then took off.

00:51:25.500 --> 00:51:34.710
Tom Baker: And it was like a. This was something that you deal with on a dateless was this a regular call I shouldn't remember it because it was just one of many that I encountered

00:51:35.040 --> 00:51:42.750
Tom Baker: But I do. And it was because of the way that I interpreted it I it was like an aha moment for me, where we were in the apartment.

00:51:43.110 --> 00:51:48.810
Tom Baker: And one of the things you would do is take a look around in the apartment to make a note of the living conditions, you know,

00:51:49.620 --> 00:51:57.210
Tom Baker: If there are kids there, you want to, you know, you kids seem happy and healthy the clean clothes. There's food and food the cupboards, you know,

00:51:57.660 --> 00:52:06.900
Tom Baker: It was just part of the report, and I was walking around the apartment while my Spanish speaking partner collected her information and I was

00:52:07.440 --> 00:52:16.020
Tom Baker: I became very angry about what it happened to her more so that I found myself typically becoming angry by something like this.

00:52:16.380 --> 00:52:24.570
Tom Baker: And found. And I thought about this later. As I went to extra lengths to track the guy down, who had who had beating her up.

00:52:25.440 --> 00:52:35.910
Tom Baker: Where we've been a couple steps couldn't find him. Normally I would have just written the report and send it to a detective and move on to the next thing, but in this case I took a couple extra steps and ended up tracking and down.

00:52:36.360 --> 00:52:47.820
Tom Baker: And I think looking back on it. What was was walking around the apartment and seeing her conform to my idea of what a mother should be so that

00:52:48.300 --> 00:52:50.220
Tom Baker: It was the kids were, were the

00:52:50.880 --> 00:53:07.950
Tom Baker: The order in the home. So it was neat and tidy. Though the woman presented as a woman, I could I identify with as a motherly figure like the way she dressed the way she carried herself the way she spoke, all of those things gave me signals that she was part of my tribe.

00:53:09.270 --> 00:53:20.730
Tom Baker: And then going into the bedroom. This is gonna sound maybe stupid but I looked in the kids bedroom and the beds were made, and they were like neatly talked, and they had like Disney character.

00:53:22.080 --> 00:53:30.630
Tom Baker: bedspreads and so in my mind. I didn't think about it consciously later I thought about it consciously, but it was it was

00:53:31.080 --> 00:53:41.610
Tom Baker: All of these signals to me that this woman was conforming to the rules and regulations that and the expectations that we have her as a woman.

00:53:42.180 --> 00:53:47.850
Tom Baker: And it and it lent it made it so that I felt the strong sense of obligation to protect her.

00:53:48.600 --> 00:54:01.020
Tom Baker: Whereas if I gone into that apartment and it was messy and she wasn't she didn't have the bedspreads and she was having some difficulties, maybe if she'd look different, or presented her gender in a different way.

00:54:01.470 --> 00:54:08.040
Tom Baker: I still would have treated with respect and ask the questions and written thorough report and done my job and arrested the guy.

00:54:08.550 --> 00:54:25.410
Tom Baker: But I really wouldn't have taken those extra steps so i think it's it's not always like, just like you said the officers just doing your job like that they would just doing it right, just following here's what you need to do as an officer to treat a person from this community fairly

00:54:25.770 --> 00:54:27.390
Tom Baker: I think it does need to go.

00:54:27.510 --> 00:54:44.370
Tom Baker: much deeper to recognizing that this is a human being who is I love and respect, like any other human being and is worthy of my protection, regardless of they have a friggin Disney beds bedspread on their other thing so

00:54:45.750 --> 00:54:57.930
Jace Valcore: Yeah, yeah, I know you touched on a really good point. It gets them to this notion of the ideal victim that we have that some people are readily looked at and accepted as victims who need to be protected and need to be

00:54:58.920 --> 00:55:02.490
Jace Valcore: You know, Justice needs to be served. And typically, what that means is

00:55:03.840 --> 00:55:09.540
Jace Valcore: It's a white woman or child right that's the readily accepted ideal victim, someone who

00:55:10.950 --> 00:55:15.840
Jace Valcore: Who, for whatever reason, we connect to the notion of innocence.

00:55:17.070 --> 00:55:18.960
Jace Valcore: Right off the bat, and yeah, when you

00:55:21.360 --> 00:55:29.640
Jace Valcore: Yeah, so I mean nothing that really comes through in the way that we other people so so readily the signals that we look for.

00:55:31.080 --> 00:55:42.900
Jace Valcore: In us versus them. Yeah, you can go into all kinds of different ways of how we stereotype people and it's really sad too because, I mean, in that scenario like

00:55:44.250 --> 00:55:48.750
Jace Valcore: Like the mother who is struggling is probably the one that needs your help more

00:55:48.810 --> 00:55:50.220
Jace Valcore: Absolutely, absolutely.

00:55:50.910 --> 00:56:01.680
Jace Valcore: But yeah, but we walk around with all these these things in our head and are not always consciously aware of the impact that it has on our decision making.

00:56:02.160 --> 00:56:08.160
Tom Baker: Right, and I can't do that. I think back, I can't imagine how many times, there were people who needed help, where I

00:56:08.760 --> 00:56:19.020
Tom Baker: I'm sure I did you know I did what I was supposed to do. But people turn for police officers people turn into, like, just like a work product. It's something that you work with.

00:56:19.530 --> 00:56:34.080
Tom Baker: During, you know, during, during the day and they sort of they they disappear, but I think that being the ideal victim or drawing on those on those things. So so so that said, how do we

00:56:35.940 --> 00:56:42.330
Tom Baker: Do we have these preconceived notions about transgender people within the law enforcement community, there are these stereotypes and ideas that

00:56:42.660 --> 00:56:53.070
Tom Baker: Police officers have, how do we go about changing the culture of policing so that police officers view and I'm going to ask you that. And this will be the last question.

00:56:54.510 --> 00:57:00.570
Tom Baker: This will be very. This is be kind of every lead that I'll give you the final thoughts. But how do we how do we shape policy.

00:57:01.410 --> 00:57:06.120
Tom Baker: What would you recommend and I know that this is we don't have a lot of data because like you said, this is

00:57:06.570 --> 00:57:17.190
Tom Baker: Just not being studied like it should. But based on what you know what can we do as a society to implement policy change so that we can begin the process of making policing, a more

00:57:17.610 --> 00:57:25.740
Tom Baker: So that policing works for people who identify as transgender in America. What can we do what tangible steps can we take sorry for the tough question all yours.

00:57:27.600 --> 00:57:34.410
Jace Valcore: Oh boy. Okay, so, um, I mean, a lot of it is very similar to just in general reforms that we need in policing.

00:57:35.520 --> 00:57:36.510
Jace Valcore: Across the board.

00:57:40.050 --> 00:57:40.770
Jace Valcore: So,

00:57:42.060 --> 00:57:57.660
Jace Valcore: I mean, we can't even though we know training has to impact. It doesn't mean we shouldn't do it doesn't mean we shouldn't try education and training is always going to be necessary. It's just that that is never going to be sufficient. Without them, because to change culture.

00:57:59.670 --> 00:58:05.640
Jace Valcore: And, you know, please. Culture is not monolithic it does vary by agency and whatnot.

00:58:06.840 --> 00:58:09.480
Jace Valcore: But General elements of it. Sure, seem to be

00:58:10.530 --> 00:58:11.580
Jace Valcore: Heavily ingrained

00:58:13.380 --> 00:58:15.450
Jace Valcore: That's going to take more that's going to take

00:58:16.920 --> 00:58:29.820
Jace Valcore: Changes in leadership changes and policy changes in in training and recruitment of the new officer, like when we talk about train. That's probably where the focus needs to turn to.

00:58:30.810 --> 00:58:48.690
Jace Valcore: Is rather than having them spend like a third of their police academy on use of force and firearms. We need to shift more towards citizen interaction and crisis intervention and de escalation of scenarios, right, which

00:58:50.280 --> 00:58:57.330
Jace Valcore: Most academies spend an average of one day on de escalation tactics that's unacceptable like universally

00:58:58.410 --> 00:59:06.210
Jace Valcore: And that is not that is so much of this, the US just stands out on its own as the exception for how police are trained

00:59:06.510 --> 00:59:07.290
Tom Baker: We're number one.

00:59:07.590 --> 00:59:07.980

00:59:09.390 --> 00:59:18.600
Jace Valcore: Like there's other countries and where police are required to have a college degree, and there's research that shows that educated officers are better.

00:59:19.200 --> 00:59:27.450
Jace Valcore: Officers, they are less likely to use forces. They are more likely to be able to solve problems and use critical thinking skills because guess what they developed that in college.

00:59:28.770 --> 00:59:40.800
Jace Valcore: Like we're we're going the opposite direction police departments right now are concerned with their ability to recruit and maintain their numbers. So they're actually eliminating what little education requirements they had in place.

00:59:41.400 --> 00:59:47.460
Jace Valcore: Not okay um the bigger picture. So this is also coming up with police violence.

00:59:48.570 --> 00:59:50.220
Jace Valcore: With with communities of color.

00:59:51.420 --> 00:59:53.820
Jace Valcore: Is that we are asking police to do too much.

00:59:54.900 --> 01:00:08.190
Jace Valcore: Transgender people, like I mentioned, are often are disproportionately likely to be unemployed and homeless, which means they are coming into contact with police on the streets and in public places more frequently and more often than they should be or need to be

01:00:09.360 --> 01:00:20.700
Jace Valcore: You know, and there have been people are probably calling the police on them knowing how the police are going to respond to this just you know obviously gender diversity person or whatever. Um,

01:00:21.870 --> 01:00:25.410
Jace Valcore: So we need to have other options to call other than the police when we're dealing with

01:00:26.430 --> 01:00:32.070
Jace Valcore: Those kinds of inner personal crises, whether it's homelessness, whether substance use, whether it's

01:00:33.570 --> 01:00:41.790
Jace Valcore: The currency, which is what they use to go after people who don't have jobs right they're just walking around on the street during the day, all of those kinds of things.

01:00:42.840 --> 01:00:51.660
Jace Valcore: Should not be under the purview of police, we need to have other and that's where the defunding argument comes in, it's, it's not about like

01:00:52.170 --> 01:01:06.810
Jace Valcore: Eliminating police, it's just about our values and our priorities with our public budgets for several decades now, we have been decreasing our investment in social services and in our welfare systems in our infrastructure.

01:01:08.550 --> 01:01:12.210
Jace Valcore: And even though crime has generally been on a

01:01:14.070 --> 01:01:19.170
Jace Valcore: decreasing trend for about three decades now, with some tix recently.

01:01:20.130 --> 01:01:21.060
Tom Baker: The notable how

01:01:21.090 --> 01:01:28.650
Jace Valcore: Yeah, yeah, yeah, even those crime has been going down police budgets are going the opposite way. So for some reason.

01:01:29.670 --> 01:01:34.500
Jace Valcore: we please have done a very good job of convincing us that they need more and more and more money.

01:01:36.390 --> 01:01:43.350
Jace Valcore: And you know the d o d budget comes into this because they give all their excess military equipment to police and now we have

01:01:43.830 --> 01:01:58.890
Jace Valcore: Military departments, instead of community policing departments like it's all big picture. And it all comes down and impacts transgender people in very much the same way that impacts the black communities and immigrant communities. Right. It's all part of the same

01:02:00.330 --> 01:02:00.840
Jace Valcore: Problem.

01:02:02.400 --> 01:02:14.730
Tom Baker: So, baby. It's not about changing the culture will change the culture of policing. That's something that needs to happen, but maybe it's a matter of not sending the cops to handle

01:02:16.530 --> 01:02:26.610
Tom Baker: Problems to help homeless people that maybe if the if the social problem is we have a homeless person camped out of here. Ba ba ba ba ba whatever problem or

01:02:27.150 --> 01:02:33.810
Tom Baker: Whatever. The problem is, maybe sending the police isn't the best way to handle that. Or if somebody has an addiction problem and addiction.

01:02:34.020 --> 01:02:40.800
Tom Baker: Sending the police is not someone is call it as a mental health crisis sending armed police is not the best.

01:02:41.130 --> 01:02:42.510
Tom Baker: Way to handle it. So,

01:02:43.350 --> 01:02:46.110
Tom Baker: When you say deeply saying and I totally agree with this.

01:02:46.320 --> 01:02:59.220
Tom Baker: It's about a reallocation of resources to agents that are more better better trained and more well suited to address the social problem, then please. Because if you send the hammer to solve a problem. They're going to hit a nail right

01:02:59.370 --> 01:03:00.900
Jace Valcore: Yeah, they do.

01:03:02.460 --> 01:03:09.930
Jace Valcore: Go ahead and just and also priorities within police agencies, right, like they don't have to spend their time.

01:03:11.700 --> 01:03:25.560
Jace Valcore: You know, walking around and the nightclubs and picking up transgender women they they choose to do that they can they can make their priority, you know, serious violent crimes. Instead, right, like that's a simple thing.

01:03:27.150 --> 01:03:31.470
Jace Valcore: To that just re prioritize how they are using their existing resources.

01:03:31.890 --> 01:03:32.910
Tom Baker: So abroad.

01:03:36.210 --> 01:03:43.320
Tom Baker: reconsidering how we allocate funds and then at the sort of micro level within a within a department how once those funds are allocated to

01:03:43.320 --> 01:03:44.010
Tom Baker: The department.

01:03:44.490 --> 01:03:46.800
Tom Baker: reconsidering how those resources are deployed.

01:03:46.980 --> 01:03:48.720
Tom Baker: On the show so

01:03:48.900 --> 01:03:55.320
Tom Baker: I'm going to ask you if you could, I think, I think everyone listening. This would benefit that interactive map. If you could maybe email that to me.

01:03:55.530 --> 01:03:56.430
Jace Valcore: Yes, sir. Sure.

01:03:56.730 --> 01:04:01.890
Tom Baker: The training video to if you could, and then I could put it in the description. That way if people are listening to this, or watching this, they can

01:04:01.920 --> 01:04:03.180
Tom Baker: They can refer to those things.

01:04:03.480 --> 01:04:06.210
Tom Baker: I've had you on here for like, way longer than I

01:04:06.330 --> 01:04:06.720
Tom Baker: Than I

01:04:07.110 --> 01:04:11.040
Tom Baker: Do so I'm kind of your time, but I wanted to just give you one last chance.

01:04:12.660 --> 01:04:16.290
Tom Baker: I so I have police officers who listen to this. I have academics.

01:04:16.350 --> 01:04:25.170
Tom Baker: And rigorous just people who are interested in policing. So I have a wide variety, people who are going to check this out. What would you are sort of final

01:04:25.740 --> 01:04:35.670
Tom Baker: given where we are right now 2020 in America all that's going on. What are your sort of final thoughts on on this issue thing what you'd like to leave the audience with

01:04:37.230 --> 01:04:37.740
Jace Valcore: Um,

01:04:39.540 --> 01:04:55.410
Jace Valcore: Well, I'm actually feeling fairly optimistic right now that we are in a, a key historic moment in US society where we can finally start getting some of the large scale reforms that we need

01:04:57.120 --> 01:04:57.750
Jace Valcore: And

01:04:58.920 --> 01:04:59.370
Jace Valcore: Yeah.

01:05:00.630 --> 01:05:08.460
Jace Valcore: We just need to have the the willpower to to make these changes happen. We have the we have examples we have

01:05:09.900 --> 01:05:15.360
Jace Valcore: Research. We have things that we can look to for how to do it. We don't have to come up with a completely on our own.

01:05:17.550 --> 01:05:18.660
Jace Valcore: Yeah, it's doable.

01:05:20.280 --> 01:05:21.240
Tom Baker: So you're optimistic.

01:05:21.810 --> 01:05:22.860
Jace Valcore: I am I am

01:05:23.490 --> 01:05:26.610
Tom Baker: Okay, I think that that I'm happy leaving it at all.

01:05:27.750 --> 01:05:30.060
Tom Baker: And I wanted to thank you for your time. I'm going to put your

01:05:30.660 --> 01:05:43.050
Tom Baker: Your bio info down below with your academic info and if anyone has any and wants to reach out to you, they can go through the your department page and reach out to you. Thank you very much. I appreciate the time and have a great week.

01:05:43.380 --> 01:05:44.760
Jace Valcore: Yeah, thank you. Thanks for