On this episode, Professor Butler and I discuss his research, his negative experience with police as a Black child growing up in Chicago, his martial arts and policing careers, his transition to academia, and the current state of police defensive tactics training in the United States.
Dr. Jeremy Butler is a newly minted Assistant Professor at Judson University in Illinois. He recently completed his PhD at the University of Illinois where he conducted research on police use of force training. Dr. Butler is also a full time police officer completing his last few shifts before transitioning to academia for good. In addition, Dr. Butler is a highly accomplished martial artist and draws on that expertise in both his work as a police officer and as an academic. His research interests include using a social cognitive framework to evaluate how physical training impacts performance and behavior. His area of focus is on police training, officer perceptions and performance in non-lethal force encounters. Twitter @JeremyButlerPhD
Tom Baker has been a PhD student in UMSL's Criminology and Criminal Justice program since 2017. Tom received his BA in Political Science from Arizona State University and worked as a police officer for approximately nine years. His research interests include police culture, use of force, and qualitative research methods. https://www.umsl.edu/ccj/Graduate%20Students/baker.htmlSupport the show
00:00:01.770 --> 00:00:06.060
Tom Baker: Again for for stopping by and spending some time with me. I appreciate it. How are you, how are you doing today.
00:00:06.480 --> 00:00:08.610
Jeremy Butler: I'm doing good. I'm doing good. How you doing,
00:00:09.090 --> 00:00:14.009
Tom Baker: I'm doing okay i i could be better to be honest with the world.
00:00:15.690 --> 00:00:27.900
Tom Baker: And when I originally reached out to you. I knew that we had some shared interests. And I thought, oh, this would be cool. We talked about police defensive tactics, a little bit. And then since then, like, history has sort of
00:00:29.070 --> 00:00:32.880
Tom Baker: You know, decided, things are going to be a little different than they were a few weeks ago.
00:00:32.970 --> 00:00:38.550
Tom Baker: Absolutely. Can just before we get going. Maybe you can I just ask you like
00:00:40.620 --> 00:00:47.280
Tom Baker: You know what, what's going on. The. Do you have any sort of initial thoughts or you know where you are right now. Is that too big a question or
00:00:48.420 --> 00:00:56.970
Jeremy Butler: Well yeah, I mean, we have a if you mean as far as what's going on in the world today. I mean yes a lot going on right now, obviously.
00:00:57.690 --> 00:01:11.160
Jeremy Butler: I think the the murder of George flow. It really is as kickstarted a lot of necessary changes, honestly, in the structure of the criminal justice system in terms of just having these conversations about what
00:01:11.670 --> 00:01:17.850
Jeremy Butler: Needs to change and and what progress needs to be made. I think what's really happening, to be honest.
00:01:18.870 --> 00:01:27.000
Jeremy Butler: Is the like modern technology is really starting to capture a lot of the issues that are that are happening in the law enforcement community.
00:01:27.300 --> 00:01:42.810
Jeremy Butler: Particularly in terms of some of the negative impacts on black people in the tensions between police and African Americans and this has been going on for decades. I just think we're really seeing a lot more of it due to due to modern technology. So moving forward, I think it
00:01:44.760 --> 00:01:54.780
Jeremy Butler: It really comes down to cities and states and departments really taking a more serious look at the underlying issues and sort of exploring innovative ways
00:01:55.410 --> 00:02:04.650
Jeremy Butler: To change the way things are done right now. And I think everybody is is pretty much in agreement. While some people may have different perspectives on how this change should occur.
00:02:05.610 --> 00:02:18.780
Jeremy Butler: And what needs to change. I think everybody is sort of on the same page that and we need to we need to be making having some mobility in terms of how things are done in law enforcement community. So yeah, a lot of work to be done. So, yeah.
00:02:19.620 --> 00:02:29.730
Tom Baker: I know it's it is, I think, like you say it's like a moment where people are coming to terms with the fact that real systematic change needs to take place. And I think you make a very
00:02:30.210 --> 00:02:40.350
Tom Baker: Important point with the technology like when I watched that the George Floyd that murder. I put what it was, wasn't just a homicide. It was like that was a murder.
00:02:40.440 --> 00:02:41.400
Tom Baker: Like absolutely, I
00:02:41.730 --> 00:02:45.240
Tom Baker: Mean what I watched was not anything that
00:02:46.770 --> 00:02:53.640
Tom Baker: Were there are some in, you know, like it wasn't ambiguous at all. It was like that guy's murdering that man and I'm watching it on video.
00:02:55.260 --> 00:03:10.740
Tom Baker: But it but then I think you're right in that this is not a new phenomena that this was happening 30 years ago and people complained. But if this had happened 30 years ago the officers would have filed the report about what happened.
00:03:11.460 --> 00:03:20.280
Tom Baker: To those witnesses who were begging for the man's life would have filed complaints that would have been handled administrative Lee and it probably would have been well
00:03:20.820 --> 00:03:30.570
Tom Baker: They didn't see what you saw the officers account is what we're rely on it would have been put in a folder and sent away and that would have been the end of it, but
00:03:31.500 --> 00:03:42.960
Tom Baker: This right now with this technology, the cell phones. Did you, did you see that over your time in law enforcement to change. Did you see this change taking place in society where this new technology.
00:03:43.380 --> 00:03:50.400
Jeremy Butler: You know, I think it was. I mean, I've been in law enforcement for us. I'm in my seventh year now. So, I mean, I think it was pretty
00:03:50.820 --> 00:04:00.960
Jeremy Butler: Pretty much there when I started, but for sure it is, you know, continuing to increase. So much so, to the point where, you know, you have, you know, like
00:04:01.500 --> 00:04:08.910
Jeremy Butler: I feel like everybody had phones obviously in 2013 when I started, but now it's at the point where it could not even be
00:04:09.300 --> 00:04:16.140
Jeremy Butler: A big deal and people are recording. I mean, people can just see a law enforcement officer walking down the street and the cameras come out.
00:04:16.500 --> 00:04:27.090
Jeremy Butler: You know, so, so I do think that that is one thing that's getting way more. It's like anytime you see a cop, you have your cameras ready. Nowadays, you know, just in case. So I think that is something that I'm noticing a change for sure.
00:04:28.020 --> 00:04:40.260
Tom Baker: And I, I started in 2005 2014 and like it was I saw, I saw some changes, but like the proliferation of this technology and becoming more
00:04:41.040 --> 00:05:02.010
Tom Baker: Like cheaper to have. And I remember like realizing very quickly. Oh, wow. People are gonna be recording things a lot more a lot more now. I think it did change. I think it. I think it changed policing, even when I was an officer and I can imagine now like the acceleration, it's, it's crazy.
00:05:02.250 --> 00:05:02.940
Jeremy Butler: Absolutely.
00:05:03.420 --> 00:05:08.580
Tom Baker: Where did you so just so we know like a little bit about your background you. Where did you grow up.
00:05:09.300 --> 00:05:12.240
Jeremy Butler: I grew up on the south side of Chicago. Yeah, so
00:05:12.870 --> 00:05:14.370
Tom Baker: Did you live anywhere else, or
00:05:15.870 --> 00:05:25.410
Jeremy Butler: From birth to age 18 when I went off to college, I was on the south side, but I did live in various places. I mean, I was in Brownsville area that's where I started out
00:05:25.710 --> 00:05:36.900
Jeremy Butler: I don't know how well you know in Chicago area, but the best reference point for that is like right by what was Comiskey Park. When I was a kid, but where does thoughts play you estela feel I think now is called guaranteed rate.
00:05:38.370 --> 00:05:39.000
Jeremy Butler: Thank you chase
00:05:39.030 --> 00:05:44.850
Jeremy Butler: Bank. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So, so I lived there. Then I moved to the Washington Heights area and then
00:05:45.750 --> 00:06:01.140
Jeremy Butler: Right before I went off to college, I was living in park mountain, which is not too far from Inglewood, so. So pretty much all over the south side and and yeah. Then I went off to college. I haven't lived in Chicago sense. So, so it really over the last
00:06:02.730 --> 00:06:12.120
Jeremy Butler: 12 years or more. Spend more so visit family because all of my family is still there. So I do visit frequently. But yeah, so
00:06:13.290 --> 00:06:24.360
Tom Baker: What so I read your dissertation, you talk about your first sort of these early experiences with police and then becoming a police officer.
00:06:24.870 --> 00:06:35.910
Tom Baker: And I think right now in this moment. It's like, you know, that transformation is something that's that it would be fascinating people to like understand you're caught into policing.
00:06:36.390 --> 00:06:43.230
Tom Baker: Vicki. Maybe can you maybe just if you don't have. You don't have to do this, but just if you could maybe talk about some of those are what those early experiences were like
00:06:43.800 --> 00:06:48.570
Tom Baker: In your mind, how, how you follow the path and the policing.
00:06:48.780 --> 00:06:53.220
Jeremy Butler: If you could, yeah, sure. So, um, so as you can imagine, a lot of people
00:06:54.480 --> 00:07:08.310
Jeremy Butler: Know, based on you know just what they see on TV regarding the Chicago specifically to South Side and issues, you know, related to that. So, you know, I wasn't exempt from from a lot of those issues and
00:07:09.480 --> 00:07:23.700
Jeremy Butler: So one one story that I shared it my dissertation, which is sure what you're referring to was my first encounter with police and basically I was walking outside of my house and
00:07:23.880 --> 00:07:25.140
Tom Baker: How old were you about this.
00:07:25.230 --> 00:07:27.540
Jeremy Butler: I had to be 13 and 14
00:07:27.990 --> 00:07:35.820
Jeremy Butler: So really, I think it was the summer before I went off to high school. So around it around 1313 and 14 and
00:07:36.720 --> 00:07:42.390
Jeremy Butler: So the screen door to my house like what slam shut really fast. If you when you go through it and it would lock.
00:07:42.870 --> 00:07:51.960
Jeremy Butler: So was I when I stepped out of my house to Door Slam really fast and I did like this. I put my hands in my pockets to make sure I have my keys, but I left my house.
00:07:52.410 --> 00:07:57.510
Jeremy Butler: And I heard like allow screech and I looked up at two cops with guns pointed at me.
00:07:58.080 --> 00:08:05.700
Jeremy Butler: And you're like, Put your hands up. I put my hands up, you know, and I'm like shaking. At this point, and they had me stepped down off the porch.
00:08:06.060 --> 00:08:12.720
Jeremy Butler: One of the officers walks up and he starts searching me and doing all my belongings out of my pocket. He put it on the ground.
00:08:13.200 --> 00:08:21.870
Jeremy Butler: And he said, Why'd you you know what you look up at me like that. I thought you had a gun and said, I have no idea what you're talking about. And
00:08:22.440 --> 00:08:40.860
Jeremy Butler: In the weird thing about this situation was the way it ended because there wasn't really a it was literally like, oh, okay. Any. They just left. You know, it wasn't like, I'm sorry. He didn't run my name or my information. It was literally just stop.
00:08:42.090 --> 00:08:48.960
Jeremy Butler: staring down the barrel of a gun. I get searched thought I had a gun and anything leaves. So I'm just like,
00:08:49.650 --> 00:09:04.380
Jeremy Butler: I'm just standing there traumatized. This is the first time. This is my first directing counter what the police officer. I had seen things but it's my first actual one on one encounter with law enforcement. It's the first time I'd ever had a gun pointed at me. So it was
00:09:04.620 --> 00:09:07.500
Tom Baker: 13 years old. You're just a kid. You're like, like
00:09:08.040 --> 00:09:10.200
Tom Baker: 13 is like a kid.
00:09:10.440 --> 00:09:19.920
Jeremy Butler: Yes, yes. And then the crazy thing about this whole thing was about a year before that happened, I was actually jumped by a couple guys on the block of just
00:09:20.490 --> 00:09:31.800
Jeremy Butler: The gang affiliation thing. I wasn't affiliated but you know I ran into an issue with that and so that that experience left me you know obviously victimized but
00:09:32.370 --> 00:09:39.990
Jeremy Butler: To have a situation. A year later, where the people that I felt were supposed to be there to protect me from elements like what I just experienced
00:09:40.440 --> 00:09:57.390
Jeremy Butler: And now I have another experience that I will argue is almost worse than the previous experience. It really just left me with a sense of distrust to our law enforcement and I felt like I really didn't have like a safe haven. Yeah. You know, it's like when I meet the dealing with
00:09:58.830 --> 00:10:07.050
Jeremy Butler: With you know gang activity on dealing with the police. So it kind of left me in this place where I'm just like, sort of, sort of lost and
00:10:08.040 --> 00:10:17.850
Jeremy Butler: In terms of in terms of how that transition into me being a police officer. That's a whole different story. I didn't really come until way later I uh
00:10:18.330 --> 00:10:28.140
Jeremy Butler: This was in graduate school. I met the chief of police at Illinois State University. And so I'm really big into martial arts. So I was teaching self defense.
00:10:28.890 --> 00:10:31.410
Jeremy Butler: In the dorms and also taught a student business center.
00:10:31.950 --> 00:10:39.390
Jeremy Butler: And I did a collaboration with it with the police department is called campus safety committee so they were have different departments collaborating on on
00:10:39.720 --> 00:10:48.000
Jeremy Butler: Increasing the safety of I issue campus, so I was a part of that initiative and so I'm at the chief through that fast for
00:10:48.510 --> 00:10:57.240
Jeremy Butler: It was a brief encounter but fast for to be graduating. I started my own martial arts business and I was working part time jobs to just kind of make
00:10:57.780 --> 00:11:02.490
Jeremy Butler: Ends meet one of the places I worked was Barnes and Noble the Starbucks and Barnes and Noble
00:11:02.880 --> 00:11:09.690
Jeremy Butler: So he went in there to get coffee. And I'm like, I know you from somewhere. And I thought he was the athletic director. Turns out, he said.
00:11:10.080 --> 00:11:22.800
Jeremy Butler: I'm the chief of police and I was like okay I remember meeting you and we started talking. He's like, have you ever considered law enforcement. And I said, to be honest, what you know and I share some of my experiences growing up, you know,
00:11:23.910 --> 00:11:31.500
Jeremy Butler: With what police and and he's, he gave me his card. He said, I want you to get in touch with me. I want to talk to you about something.
00:11:32.370 --> 00:11:36.870
Jeremy Butler: I really think you'd be a good fit for this feel. And so, so he gave me his card.
00:11:37.590 --> 00:11:46.290
Jeremy Butler: I chose to email them we met up and really long story short, he just kind of so we send in a conference from a police station and he kind of sold me on the
00:11:46.620 --> 00:11:53.580
Jeremy Butler: The idea of the career. He was saying, you know, a lot of people have, you know, the experiences that you had similar experiences and
00:11:54.000 --> 00:12:09.120
Jeremy Butler: His philosophy behind it is that he he really wants to get more minorities involved in law enforcement, which I agree with the idea that, you know, I'm having a police department is representative of the community that you serve. And that's going to certainly help
00:12:10.350 --> 00:12:18.990
Jeremy Butler: With those tensions and so when he talked to me about that. It was like okay and then literally probably seven, eight months later I met the police academy.
00:12:20.130 --> 00:12:23.250
Jeremy Butler: So yeah, it was, it was a weird, weird life transition, but yeah.
00:12:23.850 --> 00:12:26.400
Tom Baker: And how and how old were you again when you when you started
00:12:26.970 --> 00:12:29.070
Jeremy Butler: I was 25 when I started police department.
00:12:29.490 --> 00:12:30.570
Tom Baker: Started when you're 25
00:12:30.900 --> 00:12:31.380
Tom Baker: So,
00:12:31.980 --> 00:12:41.250
Tom Baker: You have you have you're not just you're not just a police officer and you're not just a scholar, but you're also a martial artist can you
00:12:41.610 --> 00:12:49.680
Tom Baker: Tell us, maybe a little bit about you know what sparked your passion and martial arts, you have somebody you have somebody so many interesting things that you do. You got a lot of ground to cover.
00:12:49.920 --> 00:13:01.650
Tom Baker: Here, maybe just start with, like, what sparked your passion and martial arts and just for people who maybe aren't familiar can just give us a little, little, little dive through like your, your martial arts path study that sort of thing.
00:13:01.740 --> 00:13:16.680
Jeremy Butler: Okay, sure. Um so nearly as long as I can remember. You know, I've had a passion for martial arts. I mean, from. I mean, I have a picture of me. I think it was like my second and third birthday, and I have like a ninja turtles K
00:13:18.270 --> 00:13:25.500
Jeremy Butler: I guess I've always I've always had, you know, an interest, but I didn't really have the opportunity, until I turned like 12
00:13:26.280 --> 00:13:30.600
Jeremy Butler: For variety of reasons, one of which was financial issues because martial arts is expensive.
00:13:31.440 --> 00:13:38.040
Jeremy Butler: So, so I got my start in martial arts. I always joke and say, I got my start late in life and that's age 12 just because I knew how long
00:13:38.610 --> 00:13:46.920
Jeremy Butler: How long, I'd be interested in it, but it was actually through a, a nonprofit organization, a church ministry on the south side.
00:13:47.640 --> 00:13:55.470
Jeremy Butler: That had there was a park district connected to the church. And when I was affiliated with the church and it was a program for you.
00:13:56.160 --> 00:14:07.980
Jeremy Butler: To learn martial arts at basically low to no cost. So I started in the pagoda martial arts system, which is essentially a, a, it's a blended system. So it's a traditional system with
00:14:08.370 --> 00:14:17.130
Jeremy Butler: Karate at is based, but it learns karate Taekwondo I Quito Kimbo jujitsu so a variety of different styles sort of mixed together.
00:14:17.760 --> 00:14:27.870
Jeremy Butler: So that's where my my foundation is I'm a black daughter net in that system and you know never stopped training is still, still the, the primary art that I teach now.
00:14:28.380 --> 00:14:44.610
Jeremy Butler: And so, so there was that from age 12 and after I got my black belt and. NET. I started sort of I've always just been on this search for knowledge and what I'm interested in. And this is going to lead it to to how again to my research to was
00:14:45.900 --> 00:14:52.980
Jeremy Butler: Really, a lot of it was mental for me like I had some low self esteem. Before I started, I had, you know, as a matter of fact, right.
00:14:53.550 --> 00:15:03.000
Jeremy Butler: When I said I get job. It was like right around the time that I started you know so i was i was very much sort of a timid kid and the beginning. Um, and
00:15:03.390 --> 00:15:10.350
Jeremy Butler: So I've always been on this search for okay what what do I want to learn next where my holes in my ability to protect myself.
00:15:11.130 --> 00:15:20.580
Jeremy Butler: So from the, from the front of pagoda root system came Kali Filipino martial arts weaponry. So I wanted to learn how to defend and train with weapons.
00:15:21.240 --> 00:15:34.230
Jeremy Butler: So I studied that for a while still still study that here in Bloomington, as well as in Chicago. Um, and so my latest obsession, if you will, has been Brazilian Jiu Jitsu
00:15:35.160 --> 00:15:44.220
Jeremy Butler: So I I've gotten my exposure Brazilian Jiu Jitsu even back when I was younger, through the promoter system, but it was just a small area of the foundation is striking
00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:55.020
Jeremy Butler: So we're really got me. It's Brazilian Jiu Jitsu was honestly being a police officer, like I felt that I had my first encounter. My first use of force encounter as a cop.
00:15:55.650 --> 00:16:03.210
Jeremy Butler: And my thing was the whole time I was thinking, you know, I can really knock this person out. But that's not appropriate, you know,
00:16:03.900 --> 00:16:13.620
Jeremy Butler: So, so it was just this mindset. I'm like, I need to figure out something that is functional that I can control somebody without having to really hurt them, you know, and I just felt that
00:16:14.160 --> 00:16:20.790
Jeremy Butler: Bad Brazilian Jiu Jitsu was the most ideal art for me that that I saw that you really can
00:16:21.360 --> 00:16:28.560
Jeremy Butler: Take is literally the art of control lead into submission. Right. So, so you can completely control someone
00:16:28.920 --> 00:16:45.990
Jeremy Butler: without throwing a punch and subdue them totally so so for me it was like, that's, that's what I want to focus in on. So I've been doing that for about five years now here in Bloomington. So I plan to continue along with my other ours but presented just it was like the focus now.
00:16:46.770 --> 00:16:58.770
Tom Baker: Yeah I would totally agree. Like, I like to box and and do jujitsu as much as I should. But, uh, they're just there's punching somebody
00:16:59.430 --> 00:17:16.950
Tom Baker: Just you just provide you a whole range of options to control people through time and space without breaking bones and cutting them and hurting them. I mean, dealing with someone who's suffering from mental health crisis somebody who's intoxicated.
00:17:18.750 --> 00:17:25.650
Tom Baker: You can you can control them wear them wear them down. Give them windows for compliance.
00:17:25.740 --> 00:17:38.580
Tom Baker: Yes. And I just, I just can't say enough good things about the idea of equipping officers, because I by research I go through just account after account of
00:17:38.970 --> 00:17:54.390
Tom Baker: Fatal encounters with law enforcement and civilians and when I watched the videos. I just, I see a lot of people see these officers, you know, doing crazy things I see terrified. People who don't have a clue what the hell they're doing
00:17:55.050 --> 00:18:02.550
Tom Baker: And they feel overwhelmed. They don't know how to react and they do stupid things and they shoot people sometimes. And that's what I think is happening.
00:18:03.150 --> 00:18:12.270
Tom Baker: And like the your experience with jujitsu if every officer could get this a good foundation. I don't know if you I seem like I feel like you would agree.
00:18:12.540 --> 00:18:14.580
Tom Baker: I we can say if we could save a lot of lives.
00:18:14.640 --> 00:18:21.390
Jeremy Butler: Absolutely as matter of fact, I'm I am actually just finished article on that, that I'm working on for for publication.
00:18:21.930 --> 00:18:40.020
Jeremy Butler: Regarding and this this particular one was for campus, law enforcement, because my argument, even with that is an issue number. So, I think, but especially with that is, you're in an environment where every year, you get a new set of 18 year olds, you know, and every year, you get a year older.
00:18:41.010 --> 00:18:41.970
Jeremy Butler: And your inquiry.
00:18:42.030 --> 00:18:44.880
Jeremy Butler: You in an environment where it's largely going to be
00:18:46.080 --> 00:18:55.800
Jeremy Butler: Most of your accountants and law enforcement in general, especially in that environment is going to be non lethal in nature and you often going to be dealing with an intoxicated person, you know, so it's like, to me,
00:18:56.460 --> 00:19:07.080
Jeremy Butler: It's sort of that perfect fit in law enforcement in general but I especially want it for this particular article I was really thinking, like man for for university police officers in particular, I think it would
00:19:07.770 --> 00:19:16.560
Jeremy Butler: Certainly be great. But one thing that I that I want to add with that is for law enforcement in general to me. You know, it is
00:19:17.370 --> 00:19:21.750
Jeremy Butler: It's not just presented. You're just so either like I think that they are several grappling
00:19:22.290 --> 00:19:41.850
Jeremy Butler: Arts that apply well to it, you know, presented just who just happens to be my area preference. But I think the big picture to me for any law enforcement that may be watching this is having a a system that's grappling based in nature that you're able to train with live resistance.
00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:56.280
Jeremy Butler: So right, go. You're saying Jiu Jitsu wrestling Sambo those artists that you're getting repetitions and but also able to to train where you're working on controlling a person who doesn't want to be control.
00:19:57.060 --> 00:20:04.980
Jeremy Butler: You know, so for me, you know, while again while I think Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is in my opinion the best. I think a wrestler.
00:20:06.030 --> 00:20:11.490
Jeremy Butler: Yes, any of those any of those arts are going to start offices quite well in that capacity.
00:20:12.150 --> 00:20:27.750
Tom Baker: Yeah, and people don't even think about wrestling as a martial art, but I would argue that if I were going to be putting myself in an environment where I needed to fight on a regular basis that and I could pick a foundation a martial art to select as my foundation, I would pick wrestling.
00:20:28.080 --> 00:20:28.380
Jeremy Butler: That's
00:20:28.560 --> 00:20:29.670
Tom Baker: That's just, just me.
00:20:31.620 --> 00:20:38.160
Tom Baker: So people don't think of it as as a martial art, but I've known to some some police officers who were wrestlers in high school and college
00:20:38.430 --> 00:20:51.150
Tom Baker: And those skill that skill set provides them with the ability to manage distance and control suspects in ways that other officers don't and provides them a ton of options. So I would wholeheartedly agree that
00:20:51.630 --> 00:21:06.360
Tom Baker: jujitsu is not the not the only answer and even within jujitsu there's so many variations in different forms. So, but just finding something that that you have a basic skill set that you can rely upon under stress is, I think,
00:21:06.390 --> 00:21:18.690
Tom Baker: You're absolutely right. It is vital. So you so you made this journey from young kid in Chicago, you go to college, you have this love of martial arts and
00:21:19.050 --> 00:21:26.910
Tom Baker: You come into policing and then the your love of martial arts is shaped by your policing career to this new path.
00:21:27.660 --> 00:21:33.990
Tom Baker: Incorporating Jiu Jitsu in a more fundamental way to your skill set. So I see this police officer this martial artists moving through life.
00:21:34.320 --> 00:21:44.280
Tom Baker: But now you're you're making you're adding another big skill set to your repertoire by getting a PhD. Can you tell me, like, what, what prompted you to do that.
00:21:47.130 --> 00:21:47.490
Jeremy Butler: Yeah.
00:21:47.820 --> 00:21:56.580
Jeremy Butler: So, so that transition into academia. So during my time as a police officer, you know, I really start reflecting on a experiences that I was having
00:21:57.090 --> 00:22:08.340
Jeremy Butler: Um, and just the field in general, not just my experiences in my environment but peers of my other officers from from all over that I was meeting and and I noticed that
00:22:10.350 --> 00:22:18.390
Jeremy Butler: I noticed some issues that I was finding in or not. Yeah, I will consider them issues but trends in terms of of of
00:22:18.930 --> 00:22:27.810
Jeremy Butler: Limitations in our field or areas that that needs to be improved and one of those was training and you know from my lens being a martial artist. I mean I literally
00:22:28.470 --> 00:22:32.490
Jeremy Butler: Do martial arts six days a week, not so much. Now with this coronavirus situation.
00:22:33.450 --> 00:22:43.560
Jeremy Butler: But before all this. I mean, literally, I was training and or teaching probably six days a week. And so to come across some of my peers who
00:22:44.100 --> 00:22:52.590
Jeremy Butler: You know, hadn't done any training, except for their, their recertification, you know, for their minimum standards. It was like
00:22:53.220 --> 00:22:59.070
Jeremy Butler: Wow, like, you know, for me it was like man, like I can only imagine if something really bad happened.
00:22:59.700 --> 00:23:12.450
Jeremy Butler: You know, the potential issues and not only imagine. I mean, we see it often times you know so so that may lead me to think, okay, what can I do about it like I really want to do more and so
00:23:13.230 --> 00:23:26.160
Jeremy Butler: I also found that so I'm control tagged as instructor for my department. I'm also teach verbal de escalation to not only civilians and students in the university environment, but also police officers as well.
00:23:27.120 --> 00:23:35.130
Jeremy Butler: And obviously with my martial arts business. I'm teaching martial arts in the community. So I was finding that I was enjoying these teaching roles.
00:23:35.580 --> 00:23:40.560
Jeremy Butler: Way more than the traditional patrol responsibility as I was having
00:23:41.250 --> 00:23:49.590
Jeremy Butler: And that may be that really led me to the realization that I think my call and is teaching in public speaking, not necessarily being a patrol officer.
00:23:50.160 --> 00:23:56.160
Jeremy Butler: You know so and I also knew the only topic that I will be able to make it through a PhD program and had to do.
00:23:56.640 --> 00:24:06.480
Jeremy Butler: Have to have something to do with martial arts defensive tactics training, whatever. So, so I was able to find that fit at the University of Illinois, which is where I where I get my PhD from
00:24:07.230 --> 00:24:13.950
Jeremy Butler: Through a man named Dr. Steve petrillo so he is a kinesiology professor there.
00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:20.580
Jeremy Butler: Who does a lot of work with firefighters, actually, you know, and first responders. In general, but his focus was firefighters.
00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:30.720
Jeremy Butler: And I knew him from when I was an undergrad there. And so I reached out to him and said, look, this is, this is my idea. You know my big thing was looking at
00:24:31.440 --> 00:24:40.380
Jeremy Butler: Police Training, the physical training officers receive but also how it impacts them cognitively that confidence piece that I talked about before, I felt like martial arts really
00:24:40.830 --> 00:24:47.790
Jeremy Butler: Made me a much more confident person growing up. So, so while I know officers are genuine generally confident
00:24:48.210 --> 00:24:58.260
Jeremy Butler: I feel like when we get into these physical situations. I do think officers who are is trained. I think that confidence kind of starts to drop you know
00:24:58.590 --> 00:25:04.170
Jeremy Butler: A star really wants to study that you know know those social cognitive factors. And so he was like
00:25:04.710 --> 00:25:13.470
Jeremy Butler: Sure you know he's entered into first responders. If I was interested in person. Overall, so he took me on as an advisor and
00:25:14.070 --> 00:25:21.150
Jeremy Butler: So, so. Yeah, so that was 20 January 2016 I finished my PhD last month in May 2020
00:25:21.690 --> 00:25:32.190
Jeremy Butler: And so, so really just maybe get to a point where I was like, you know, if I become a professor, you know, I can really get the best of both worlds. I can continue to teach in a collegiate
00:25:32.610 --> 00:25:38.670
Jeremy Butler: Environment, like I can teach and collegiate environment and continue to support the law enforcement profession.
00:25:38.910 --> 00:25:49.650
Jeremy Butler: Through speaking engagements teaching workshops reaching out to officers my research. So I was just like why why not do that, you know, I feel like I can make a much greater impact on a field is a whole
00:25:50.760 --> 00:25:52.860
Jeremy Butler: City. So that's where that really came about.
00:25:53.580 --> 00:26:04.440
Tom Baker: So far, so you found you found something that you love doing which is teaching and then you said, why can do something I love and leverage my skill set to have a greater impact on my community.
00:26:04.620 --> 00:26:05.220
Jeremy Butler: Exactly.
00:26:05.280 --> 00:26:07.800
Tom Baker: So, so that's that's what I think it's a great fit.
00:26:09.060 --> 00:26:13.530
Tom Baker: For you. I think you're excited to see where what happens in your career can
00:26:15.360 --> 00:26:21.420
Tom Baker: Did you do you. Did you do your PhD you while you're still working as a police officer while you did your PhD.
00:26:21.990 --> 00:26:23.670
Jeremy Butler: Yeah, I'm still working as a police officer.
00:26:23.760 --> 00:26:26.340
Jeremy Butler: As you did it. Yeah, right. And you
00:26:26.610 --> 00:26:29.730
Tom Baker: And you are also teaching and training six days a week.
00:26:30.120 --> 00:26:32.970
Jeremy Butler: Yeah, so I yeah it's been rough for years.
00:26:34.410 --> 00:26:37.440
Jeremy Butler: So, and plus i have a five year old daughter.
00:26:37.590 --> 00:26:43.080
Jeremy Butler: And wife. So, so, yeah. Life has been going crazy. So yeah, I did my PhD.
00:26:43.980 --> 00:26:50.730
Jeremy Butler: Over the last four and a half years. I did it part time though, so I only took one class at a time, every semester, including the summers.
00:26:51.120 --> 00:26:58.620
Jeremy Butler: While working full time as a police officer work the night shift which actually worked in my favor working overnight, because I had the day
00:26:59.040 --> 00:27:09.810
Jeremy Butler: To be available and I own a good rebirth martial arts, which is my business in Bloomington, where I teach private lessons, as well as I have a youth program at Community Center in town.
00:27:10.800 --> 00:27:22.950
Jeremy Butler: Not for profit program just like what I had when I was a kid, I started one of those programs. Here is our community. And so yeah, so all of that and raising my daughter, all it wants. So
00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:28.710
Jeremy Butler: This summer has been like a really good moment to kind of decompress
00:27:29.640 --> 00:27:33.390
Jeremy Butler: Because I graduated, I'm in the middle of that transition. I'm currently
00:27:33.780 --> 00:27:51.810
Jeremy Butler: As we speak, I'm in my last couple weeks July 2 is my last day on patrol and then I'll be moving out to the Elgin area for my my new position at Justin university. So, so a lot of change going on right now, but I'm able to kind of everything's toning down overall so yeah
00:27:52.950 --> 00:28:07.980
Tom Baker: And so you're almost you're almost done and ready to sign off the final time just he just thinking just be I didn't have to do what you did, but just the idea of working and doing all those things at the same time is makes me tired, just thinking about
00:28:09.000 --> 00:28:18.660
Tom Baker: The so just I want to backtrack a little time. Just a tiny little bit when you talk about your sort of surprised at the state of police training.
00:28:19.260 --> 00:28:24.150
Tom Baker: Especially when it came to like you're meeting your friends and you're hearing the kind of training that they're getting
00:28:24.570 --> 00:28:34.560
Tom Baker: When I before I was a cop and my, I think my friends who don't know much about policing, there's this assumption. Like I always thought, well, hops, know how to fight cops are
00:28:35.070 --> 00:28:42.240
Tom Baker: They they're trained to break people bones do all this crazy stuff they know what they're doing. Can you maybe
00:28:42.510 --> 00:28:49.380
Tom Baker: I know the United States is it varies depending on where you are. There's, there's, you know, thousands of departments is tons of variability
00:28:49.710 --> 00:29:06.450
Tom Baker: But if you randomly selected hundred officers around the United States. What would you sort of expect their training in unarmed defensive tactics, so not using guns but like you though. You know how to fight like what kind of training, would they have, what would you expect
00:29:07.500 --> 00:29:12.390
Jeremy Butler: Um, I would expect it to be quite minimal, to be honest with you.
00:29:14.730 --> 00:29:15.270
Jeremy Butler: So,
00:29:16.650 --> 00:29:24.360
Jeremy Butler: Trying to figure out a good way to to to phrase that that answer in terms of what's being taught a lot of it is
00:29:25.440 --> 00:29:35.790
Jeremy Butler: Very much so. At this point, to protect the the officers from injury. So there's a lot of concern with that with with injury risk so
00:29:36.210 --> 00:29:47.460
Jeremy Butler: A lot of it does seem to be to to really focus on. Okay, how do we meet the standards that are set keep our own first to say as well. And also stay within our budget.
00:29:47.940 --> 00:29:58.170
Jeremy Butler: And this leads to a lot of these barriers that that that we're seeing in terms of various to train in somebody's issues and law enforcement. So, I mean, I can't give a solid
00:29:58.560 --> 00:30:10.140
Jeremy Butler: Number. I mean, I, I know for sure. You know that it is nowhere near where I think it should be, you know, like I know in the state of Illinois. The the
00:30:11.370 --> 00:30:19.080
Jeremy Butler: Minimum training set by the state is pretty generic. They just say that there needs to be annual use of force training that is scenario based
00:30:19.800 --> 00:30:24.150
Jeremy Butler: Right, that's pretty much all the wording is so you have departments that
00:30:24.720 --> 00:30:41.580
Jeremy Butler: Have really embraced the training and they'll you know they have full on defensive tactics programs and, you know, and then you have departments that have minimal to no training in terms of that area. So yeah, like you said, I mean, it's so so buried. It's hard to say, you know,
00:30:42.630 --> 00:30:59.010
Tom Baker: Would you. So what would you be surprised if you bet an officer who went through base went through their police academy, you know, they spent a week on defensive tactics and then once a year. They have like a four hour refresher.
00:30:59.520 --> 00:31:09.960
Jeremy Butler: Yeah, that sounds about like what I would expect. Now I will say. Um, so what, when I when I just gave you that whole piece I'm referring to post Academy
00:31:10.620 --> 00:31:23.010
Jeremy Butler: Right. Oh, I feel like in the police academy now. Now this berries to, obviously, but I feel like in the police academy, there are a fair amount of academies that do like your physical training is kind of hit hard, and why
00:31:24.210 --> 00:31:24.720
Tom Baker: Is this
00:31:24.930 --> 00:31:32.940
Jeremy Butler: A problem starts to come once officers leave the academy and you know those ongoing standards from there significantly drop, but
00:31:33.540 --> 00:31:37.170
Jeremy Butler: There are there are academies that they just have one week block.
00:31:37.680 --> 00:31:49.230
Jeremy Butler: Of the actual defensive tactic and then you want other stuff, but they have ongoing physical standards terms of fitness, but they're also academies that are spaced, which is what I would recommend or you have
00:31:50.070 --> 00:31:59.190
Jeremy Butler: Like at the police trainers to to have 13 for our blocks. So the defensive tactics training is spread across the academy.
00:31:59.520 --> 00:32:08.700
Jeremy Butler: You know, across the the 14 week Academy, which is going to help with knowledge retention a skill retention. When you have that versus 140 hour, you know,
00:32:09.000 --> 00:32:09.480
Jeremy Butler: Sure.
00:32:10.110 --> 00:32:13.380
Tom Baker: So you cram for your test and biology, right, you're
00:32:14.280 --> 00:32:15.960
Tom Baker: You're supposed to learn it over time. Right.
00:32:15.990 --> 00:32:30.270
Jeremy Butler: Yeah, so, but yeah. But even that I definitely would say that Academy training just overall in terms of preparing officers is much better than the training they receive once they get out, you know, on to their departments, so
00:32:30.450 --> 00:32:35.160
Tom Baker: And I have encountered departments that have, you know, robust
00:32:36.030 --> 00:32:47.100
Tom Baker: defensive tactics training programs where you'll have a team of officers were very dedicated and they put together these programs and they'll find they'll engage find ways to engage officers and it's it's really admirable and impressive.
00:32:47.550 --> 00:32:52.470
Tom Baker: But there. It's all I think it's also fair to say that in the United States that
00:32:52.890 --> 00:33:06.030
Tom Baker: largely speaking once police officers leave the leave the police academy. It sort of becomes incumbent upon themselves to develop a defensive tactics skill set, do you think, do you think that's broadly speaking, a pretty fair statement to make.
00:33:06.060 --> 00:33:19.620
Jeremy Butler: Yes, for sure. And you know his into a little bit of research, one of the constructs of theory that I use is called self regulation and self regulation is essentially a person's
00:33:20.580 --> 00:33:26.580
Jeremy Butler: Ability to set their own goals monitor their goals and give themselves sort of initiative.
00:33:27.450 --> 00:33:35.250
Jeremy Butler: Rewards for, you know, their accomplishments. So it's your ability to essentially self regulate your behavior and
00:33:35.760 --> 00:33:42.900
Jeremy Butler: That's one of the big things that I think is important in law enforcement, considering the limited access to resources because this isn't
00:33:43.320 --> 00:33:50.820
Jeremy Butler: Like, one thing that I never mean to do is is to take shots and police departments, because there's a reason why you know
00:33:51.060 --> 00:34:01.080
Jeremy Butler: structures are in place. It's not that they don't want the training. You know, a lot of times, this is the answer time due to the circumstances, whether it be budgetary, you know, whatever, whatever the
00:34:01.590 --> 00:34:12.630
Jeremy Butler: Circumstances are so, so, so I do think that there's that factor that we have to take into consideration. But yes, I agree 100% when we, when we talking about self regulatory behavior. I think
00:34:14.040 --> 00:34:20.820
Jeremy Butler: It's an officers responsibility to prepare themselves if he if you want to be in the opposite. If you want to be a police officer.
00:34:21.150 --> 00:34:26.550
Jeremy Butler: And you want to serve and protect the community. Why wouldn't you want to make sure that you can protect yourself first.
00:34:27.420 --> 00:34:32.430
Jeremy Butler: And maybe gain the skill set, you know, so, so I do think that those those self regulatory
00:34:33.060 --> 00:34:43.650
Jeremy Butler: Skills are important, where you you establish a goal. Okay, I'm gonna, I'm going to do more of this tree. I know this is my area weakness. So this is what I'm gonna do, I'm gonna, you know, even if this
00:34:44.070 --> 00:35:00.090
Jeremy Butler: It doesn't even have to be something where you get a black though, you know, or anything like that. Like even if you take private lessons and you just do Sam going to do a couple properties, a month, you know, will be better than nothing. You know, so, so, yeah, for sure. I agree.
00:35:00.810 --> 00:35:16.830
Tom Baker: Absolutely. I, I just spoke with a guy. I don't know if added McGuire. He's at Arizona State, and he does, he's a he's got a brown belt in jujitsu and he teaches police policing and he studies police response to protest.
00:35:17.850 --> 00:35:27.720
Tom Baker: And also place defensive tactics and he was saying. He also owns a Jiu Jitsu Academy. And he was saying that the first day that a new student comes in.
00:35:28.140 --> 00:35:38.100
Tom Baker: The first thing he teaches is okay, you're on your back, you know, how do you defend from being punched in the face by somebody when you if you end up on your back.
00:35:38.670 --> 00:35:48.330
Tom Baker: And if you took, if you took officers in on a regular basis like once a month and you had just a small a few basic skills like that.
00:35:49.320 --> 00:35:55.230
Tom Baker: They're not complicated like just, you know, like how to pull guard, how to, you know, that just a few basic things.
00:35:55.650 --> 00:36:09.300
Tom Baker: You know, like there there's best probably the bad a bad example. But if we just reinforce those things. It wouldn't like you just said you don't need these officers to have black belts. We don't need to hire john Claude Van Damme to be the police chief
00:36:09.300 --> 00:36:22.350
Tom Baker: Me. It's just very basic, basic things. And like I was in the army and we wouldn't send like our we were going to send a unit to go on deployment.
00:36:23.280 --> 00:36:33.720
Tom Baker: And do a mission. They spent a considerable amount of time training to do that mission ahead of time, and it was part of your job was trained to do the job.
00:36:34.290 --> 00:36:34.530
Jeremy Butler: And
00:36:34.710 --> 00:36:37.830
Tom Baker: In policing. I find that a lot of the time.
00:36:39.720 --> 00:36:49.230
Tom Baker: That's that's it's viewed as an extra it's like something you're doing a training is something you do in addition to police work. Do you think that's a barrier to to this or
00:36:49.710 --> 00:37:04.860
Jeremy Butler: Absolutely, yes. Yeah, that that mindset. And that's one of the things that came up in my research, research was on the administrative support, oftentimes, you know, the officers that that I spoke with it. And the focus groups that I did. They said that oftentimes
00:37:05.880 --> 00:37:13.920
Jeremy Butler: The amount of training that they receive is often based on the leadership. If you have a person who was in charge of the training.
00:37:14.400 --> 00:37:24.570
Jeremy Butler: That makes those decisions on what training is received and how much ready to receive if they were a defense attack this guy if they are martial artists will they were a form of control tactics instructor
00:37:25.020 --> 00:37:36.600
Jeremy Butler: They tend to get more of that. Whereas if you have an officer that focused on something, you know, before they they got stripes and began to leadership. They focused on other areas. Then they tend to
00:37:37.200 --> 00:37:50.190
Jeremy Butler: You know, they tend to provide opportunities for those areas, rather than the defensive tactics. So there's certainly a certain level of of bias in the leadership in terms of what gets allocated what's you know what the focus is going to be right.
00:37:50.370 --> 00:38:04.980
Tom Baker: What if you work to dope investigations, you probably going to send resources to those types of that totally makes sense. I think that's an any any business you're in, if the guy was in logistics. The woman wasn't logistics, they're probably going to be understand logistics.
00:38:04.980 --> 00:38:07.800
Jeremy Butler: Back actually expertise that's your area of interest. So
00:38:08.940 --> 00:38:22.650
Tom Baker: So one thing that you, you said is that departments when they devised their defensive tactics programs. There's a real desire to quit officers with ways to prevent themselves from being injured.
00:38:23.100 --> 00:38:41.310
Tom Baker: To protect officers. Can you talk a little bit about. So it's, it makes sense that learning defensive tactics is a good way to protect yourself. Can you talk a little bit about how having a police officer who is well trained and defensive tactics is a benefit to the suspect
00:38:42.330 --> 00:38:43.080
Tom Baker: How
00:38:43.440 --> 00:38:44.400
Tom Baker: Can you talk about that.
00:38:44.640 --> 00:38:50.340
Jeremy Butler: Yeah, okay. So, so let me. I want to preface it first, though, um, by saying no.
00:38:51.390 --> 00:39:03.360
Jeremy Butler: Obviously developing these skills is just one area among a vast amount of things that have to change. Right. And I always have to say that because we just talked about bias.
00:39:04.470 --> 00:39:10.650
Jeremy Butler: And I don't mean I'm not referring to racial bias, right now I'm saying my bias is martial arts as a type of control tech
00:39:12.540 --> 00:39:22.230
Jeremy Butler: Is the important area of focus. Like, I do think that in terms of police perform as a whole is multi layer right there's this there's a there's a model.
00:39:23.040 --> 00:39:34.740
Jeremy Butler: That you know I wrote about. It's called the social, ecological model and it's talking about how there are varying levels that intervention needs to happen. There's the individual level is the
00:39:35.190 --> 00:39:47.730
Jeremy Butler: Relationships, the PPR social support networks your community. And then there's the societal level where you see policy change. So, so I want to say my area of expertise and focus is on that individual level.
00:39:47.820 --> 00:39:48.780
Jeremy Butler: On that, you know,
00:39:49.110 --> 00:39:51.600
Jeremy Butler: They immediate environment of the officers.
00:39:51.630 --> 00:39:54.090
Tom Baker: So I was not one small piece of the pie. Yeah.
00:39:54.150 --> 00:39:58.440
Jeremy Butler: Exactly. So I'm not by any means trying to limit the importance of
00:39:59.250 --> 00:40:11.850
Jeremy Butler: Officers getting more training in other areas and community engagement implicit racial bias and just the social and justices that are occurring right now. So I'm not trying to limit that but I just want to speak to my area of expertise.
00:40:11.910 --> 00:40:12.600
Tom Baker: Right well
00:40:12.990 --> 00:40:16.710
Jeremy Butler: I always have to say that first because I don't want people to have their own you know idea.
00:40:16.980 --> 00:40:30.570
Tom Baker: No, absolutely. If you, if you're a hammer, you're looking to find. Now let me just what you know that's what your, your area of expertise is. But yeah, absolutely. I would agree that this, this is the problem that we're facing right now is a systemic problem.
00:40:30.720 --> 00:40:32.790
Tom Baker: Yeah, and it's not just, it's not
00:40:33.000 --> 00:40:41.670
Tom Baker: This part of policing. It's not even that it's all of policing its policing and the economy and housing and transportation and
00:40:42.480 --> 00:40:55.650
Tom Baker: It's everything it's everything. So I totally am tracking. So yeah, I also want to say I'm not trying to say like this problem is because officers don't have. I haven't been trained training is not going to solve this problem, but it can
00:40:55.920 --> 00:40:57.030
Tom Baker: It can help make things better.
00:40:57.240 --> 00:41:05.310
Jeremy Butler: Exactly so. But to answer your question, yes. And I mean I think that goes back to our discussion about jujitsu where, you know, I feel like
00:41:05.580 --> 00:41:11.490
Jeremy Butler: What not I feel like the research really suggest that an officer who's well trained in defensive tactics.
00:41:11.760 --> 00:41:19.620
Jeremy Butler: Tends to be more confident in their abilities. So they're going to be less likely to use excessive force, right, because they know how to handle the situation.
00:41:20.580 --> 00:41:29.790
Jeremy Butler: They're not. They're less likely to need to escalate to higher levels of force, even if justify it. Right. So. So for example, if I have the ability to
00:41:31.590 --> 00:41:44.040
Jeremy Butler: I usually give this example a lot because we've seen video on it going south and going, well, I think it was in maybe Kansas where the, the officer ended up shooting a firefighter off duty firefighter.
00:41:45.150 --> 00:41:54.420
Jeremy Butler: Because he ended up on his back and they were in the total and he ended up shooting, which was a justified shoe considering circumstances this officers. I was fractured and
00:41:54.900 --> 00:42:02.040
Jeremy Butler: But, but, my thing is if if the training would have been a little bit better. And this is just speculation here. But if the trainer would have
00:42:02.430 --> 00:42:21.180
Jeremy Butler: Been a little bit better. And he had that ability to control those punches from this back, get to a position where he can notify the situation, would he have had to resort to shooting the guy you know i don't i don't think he would have, you know, so, so for me it's like the main way that
00:42:22.290 --> 00:42:29.520
Jeremy Butler: Increase in these tactics in their skill on these areas. It's going to allow the officers to be able to
00:42:30.120 --> 00:42:40.290
Jeremy Butler: Effectively control these situations, not only with their physical skill, but also keep control of themselves, mentally, because when you when you don't have that training.
00:42:40.860 --> 00:42:45.540
Jeremy Butler: You start to kick into that some survival mode to a point where
00:42:46.500 --> 00:42:54.420
Jeremy Butler: Oftentimes, you're not, you may not be thinking straight. Because I mean, these are situations that are I mean what is Granby kind of say, you know,
00:42:54.960 --> 00:43:01.770
Jeremy Butler: Tense rapidly evolving situation if they're really dangerous situation. So the more officer trains, the more they're going to be able to
00:43:02.310 --> 00:43:12.450
Jeremy Butler: sort of keep their cool in these moments think more clearly and be able to control the situation, a whole lot better. So, so to me that's that's the big picture behind the train and it's not only going to
00:43:13.470 --> 00:43:20.520
Jeremy Butler: Help the officers survive the encounter, but it's also going to be able to give them an opportunity to make a choice in that moment of
00:43:21.210 --> 00:43:31.860
Jeremy Butler: Using the minimum level of force necessary just because you're justified in doing something doesn't mean that you're going to have to do it. If you have the proper tools to keep that from happening.
00:43:32.700 --> 00:43:41.010
Tom Baker: Absolutely. I, I just with what's happening. It's tight Tulsa today. There's a rally and you know all that craziness, but I
00:43:41.610 --> 00:43:48.240
Tom Baker: Brings to mind a video I saw, I don't know if you saw it have to gang unit members and Tulsa and an individual, they
00:43:49.080 --> 00:43:58.590
Tom Baker: They're taking them out of vehicle. They're patting him down for weapons and he starts to flee. They go to the ground and this guy's very obviously going to his waistband and trying to pull a gun out
00:43:59.100 --> 00:44:03.000
Tom Baker: And the, the two police officers are obviously very well trained like
00:44:03.150 --> 00:44:08.130
Tom Baker: Jiu Jitsu and you can tell the guy takes us back immediately.
00:44:09.450 --> 00:44:11.340
Tom Baker: You seen that one right i mean
00:44:11.970 --> 00:44:27.270
Tom Baker: Yeah, that's a great video and what I think it illustrates is that the that it's it allows the confidence that they have to know where his hand is and know that they can give it a couple more seconds.
00:44:28.590 --> 00:44:40.230
Tom Baker: And that provides a window for them to gain the compliance and then you see they they state they choke that should they give them as a choke they strangle him. They give him what in jujitsu we call a rear naked choke, but it's actually, you know,
00:44:40.320 --> 00:44:41.580
Jeremy Butler: Spread the envelope flow, rather than
00:44:41.580 --> 00:44:42.270
Tom Baker: Right, right.
00:44:42.360 --> 00:44:46.110
Tom Baker: Which is technically you know strangulation but it
00:44:47.250 --> 00:45:04.020
Tom Baker: The my opinion watching that video that those officers like there was no question that they would have been justified and shooting that man to Say it. Say it a lot, but the the the the the that skill set gives the give but save that man's life. I think
00:45:04.500 --> 00:45:07.890
Jeremy Butler: Absolutely. And I think that even with that, you know,
00:45:09.210 --> 00:45:18.600
Jeremy Butler: A lot of officers will say, you know, I, you know, and these are particular officers who don't have the experience or the training, they'll be like,
00:45:19.020 --> 00:45:24.060
Jeremy Butler: You know, why even, you know, I would definitely shoot that person in that moment, because of the risks.
00:45:24.420 --> 00:45:31.320
Jeremy Butler: But again, that goes back to confidence. But then obviously didn't have confidence in his ability to control that person. Yeah, he probably would have shot him.
00:45:32.130 --> 00:45:41.040
Jeremy Butler: And and I'm not saying that that will be a bad if you have, if you're in a situation where you truly believe that it's gonna be your life or there's and there's clearly a gun present
00:45:41.340 --> 00:45:49.470
Jeremy Butler: And this person is fighting for the gun and if that's what you need to do to survive. Then, then you'd have to do what you have to do. But really, the thing is, here is
00:45:49.890 --> 00:45:57.510
Jeremy Butler: If I do know that I have the skill set and I am comfortable with saving a life in this moment in time, why not have that as an option.
00:45:57.810 --> 00:46:03.930
Jeremy Butler: You know, so to me that's the big picture, it's not it's not that I really don't want people to
00:46:04.560 --> 00:46:15.750
Jeremy Butler: Have the perception and especially officers to have the perception that that means that, Oh, we can't use these tools because now we have this training and we have like no, you have to do what is
00:46:16.230 --> 00:46:27.990
Jeremy Butler: makes most sense for you in that moment and and that training does give you the confidence to say, you know what I have time, this person isn't going anywhere I can control the limbs this other officer can grab the weapon.
00:46:28.260 --> 00:46:32.040
Jeremy Butler: And get it out of the picture, as you saw in that video and move forward. You know, so
00:46:32.190 --> 00:46:39.690
Jeremy Butler: I think that's what it comes down to is given officers alternative options not saying that this option is going to replace the others.
00:46:39.810 --> 00:46:47.490
Tom Baker: Right. And like you said, just because you can do something so like there's, you know, there's the legal restrictions with police officer can do a lot
00:46:47.760 --> 00:46:48.510
Tom Baker: And then there's the
00:46:48.720 --> 00:46:57.090
Tom Baker: Administrative, you know, the policy that restricts your behavior and then they're below that there's a lot of space where police officers can use deadly force, but
00:46:57.780 --> 00:47:08.190
Tom Baker: When you shoot somebody, you take a life that's something you're gonna, I mean that's on you now. Like, you're gonna have to live with that. And if those those officers.
00:47:09.000 --> 00:47:16.110
Tom Baker: Were if they'd shot and killed that man that was going to be with them for the rest of their lives as well. So there's another I think
00:47:16.890 --> 00:47:35.940
Tom Baker: A problem. I do find in policing right here officers have an attitude of, you know, I can. I could like not saying all offers, but I've heard that attitude before and it bothers me of, you know, I have, I can do something it doesn't necessarily mean you should
00:47:36.090 --> 00:47:44.340
Jeremy Butler: Yeah, and it's like, do you really want to, you know, it's easy to say that right now. But do you really want the repercussions of that even if you are justified.
00:47:44.790 --> 00:47:47.310
Jeremy Butler: Right, and it goes back to even outside of your realm.
00:47:47.340 --> 00:47:58.620
Jeremy Butler: Police. I talked to my students about this all the time. It's like, you know, do you really want to get into a fight this person can be being the hugest jerk and they can you know
00:47:59.370 --> 00:48:06.240
Jeremy Butler: Clearly, they can be in a situation where if you get into this confrontation, it would have been understandable.
00:48:06.960 --> 00:48:16.710
Jeremy Butler: But what are the consequences of that even if you win, win the fight. You still running the risk of you don't know what type of weapons. This person has on them.
00:48:17.010 --> 00:48:27.840
Jeremy Butler: You know, you don't know about the possibility of a lawsuit possibility of UBM like it's so many unknown variables. It's much more worth it to just walk away in that context.
00:48:28.170 --> 00:48:29.970
Jeremy Butler: And drawing that into law enforcement, it's the
00:48:29.970 --> 00:48:39.600
Jeremy Butler: Same idea why. You can do all this. Do you really want to question. Let's say you you know you are justify and using this level of force, but you could have used another level force.
00:48:39.960 --> 00:48:58.290
Jeremy Butler: Do you want the repercussions of using the maximum level force, even if you're completely justified. You want that media attention. Do you want that you know that that potential for being fired and, you know, all of these things. It's like, no, it's, it's not even worth it, you know.
00:48:58.410 --> 00:49:07.740
Tom Baker: And just the way like I was, I was in a deadly force. A FATAL SHOOTING. When I was a police officer and it was just a little over 11 years ago and it was
00:49:09.030 --> 00:49:17.400
Tom Baker: I have no question that I made the right decision. I was like it was a deadly force encounter. I was either, you know, I was going to get
00:49:17.820 --> 00:49:25.530
Tom Baker: seriously injured or possibly killed and there was a another person and I didn't have. I have no question that I didn't have any choice, but even now.
00:49:26.130 --> 00:49:32.340
Tom Baker: I think about that on a regular basis. You know, like, did I, you know, like it's a car. It's something that will stick with you.
00:49:32.580 --> 00:49:38.940
Tom Baker: So when I hear officer, like the year after say that I probably said, stuff like that. When I was, you know, younger officer.
00:49:39.240 --> 00:49:55.290
Tom Baker: But it really is. Aside from all the administrative, legal career, all of that, like we're all going to be hopefully old, old people someday and you don't want to be laying in your bed as an old person and thank you know I shot that guy because I could you know what I mean.
00:49:55.350 --> 00:50:05.880
Jeremy Butler: That's a good point to just from the perspective of the trauma involved with with shooting someone you know justify justify that I'm sure that there comes a lot of that.
00:50:06.480 --> 00:50:18.630
Jeremy Butler: Consistent processing of the situation that you really also don't want to deal with for the rest of your life. You know, so just yeah it's it's a lot, a lot of those areas that I think support.
00:50:19.560 --> 00:50:34.470
Jeremy Butler: You know my stance that you should prepare yourself with the proper tools to be able to make a decision at that point that makes the most sense for you and that hopefully is the least amount of force necessary, you know, so yeah.
00:50:35.790 --> 00:50:42.330
Tom Baker: Absolutely. So, I'm sorry, I've taken up so much time and haven't even really gotten to them to talk too much about your research because you know
00:50:42.360 --> 00:50:42.900
Tom Baker: knock it out.
00:50:42.990 --> 00:50:46.020
Tom Baker: Let's talk about about martial arts and stuff.
00:50:46.620 --> 00:50:56.670
Tom Baker: So can you maybe just, just give us a tell us a little bit about your dissertation. So where did you collect your, your data. And what did. What did you collected. How did you analyze it.
00:50:56.970 --> 00:51:08.850
Jeremy Butler: Okay. So I did a two part study. So the more time at this study looking at the impact of the physical training officers receive at the Police Training Institute in Champaign, Illinois.
00:51:09.930 --> 00:51:17.550
Jeremy Butler: And essentially, I use the social cognitive framework. So to look at this. So the quantitative component of the study.
00:51:18.060 --> 00:51:30.570
Jeremy Butler: I looked at how the defensive tactics training and fitness training the new officers were getting at the academy how impact their self efficacy and self efficacy is but you could basically think of it as your confidence level confidence.
00:51:31.140 --> 00:51:42.570
Jeremy Butler: In this case, and handling a violent encounter that is not so. So what is their level of confidence and dealing with that and prior to completing the study I I couldn't
00:51:43.410 --> 00:51:56.430
Jeremy Butler: Find any self efficacy scales that assessment offices confidence in that area. So I decided to create one, you know, and from there it was really just
00:51:57.810 --> 00:52:03.600
Jeremy Butler: Using a scale to look at recruits before they got any training. So before, so before their first
00:52:04.080 --> 00:52:20.640
Jeremy Butler: Fitness or defensive tactics session I surveyed them and I did three different recruit classes. And then at the end of the last training session I surveyed them again using the same scale. And then I did a follow up six months into consider Korean law enforcement.
00:52:21.720 --> 00:52:29.850
Jeremy Butler: And so in terms of analyzing it, I use the, I don't know how much in depth of the statistics wanted to go into it but I use a variety of statistical tests.
00:52:30.600 --> 00:52:37.560
Jeremy Butler: To compare their scores, looking at different group characteristics. So I was so one thing that I really want to know.
00:52:37.920 --> 00:52:44.700
Jeremy Butler: Obviously, who I am. I wanted to know their previous martial arts or self defense training before any police work.
00:52:45.090 --> 00:52:50.610
Jeremy Butler: And I wanted to compare that to people who didn't have experience also compare by gender. Just a variety of
00:52:51.330 --> 00:52:56.400
Jeremy Butler: Things there. And then in terms of the qualitative component. I really wanted to
00:52:57.240 --> 00:53:08.040
Jeremy Butler: Not only compliment, but kind of build a comprehensive picture for this so so sad to do some focus groups and it was smaller in nature to small focus groups with veteran officers.
00:53:08.880 --> 00:53:21.990
Jeremy Butler: That previously had trained at the police China's to also so they have to have at least five years on the job and they have to have at least two use of force experiences that require some type of former defensive of control tactics.
00:53:23.130 --> 00:53:36.720
Jeremy Butler: And and I really want to get their perceptions of the state of police defensive tactics training and what their experiences were and in order to analyze that I used to directed approach to content analysis. So basically,
00:53:37.950 --> 00:53:43.980
Jeremy Butler: There were five constructs within a social cognitive theory and I wasn't framework that are used and essentially created
00:53:44.460 --> 00:53:53.280
Jeremy Butler: Focus group guy with questions, but I have four primary research questions that looked at somebody a personal experiences. I looked at the department culture.
00:53:53.640 --> 00:53:59.100
Jeremy Butler: As well as general recommendations that they that they had terms of improving the state of training.
00:53:59.730 --> 00:54:05.400
Jeremy Butler: And their responses were coded through these constructs. So one of the constructs, for example, with self advocacy.
00:54:05.730 --> 00:54:12.090
Jeremy Butler: And you have behavior capability safe self regulation, like I was talking about earlier. So a variety of different constructs and NS
00:54:12.480 --> 00:54:23.490
Jeremy Butler: I use those constructs to sort of establish repetitive themes within what they were saying in the focus groups, most things. So this is the basis for for not fighting
00:54:24.480 --> 00:54:40.110
Tom Baker: So you did a quantitative exercise where you collected data from from these officers and you're sort of controlling for previous training and background all these characteristics. So that's one component and then you interview.
00:54:40.740 --> 00:54:56.790
Tom Baker: These other officers who had already gone through the training in the past. And then as you like. As you code those data from the focus groups, your, your, your zeroing in on these these themes through this framework that you're
00:54:57.930 --> 00:55:12.930
Tom Baker: Implementing and when you when you collect when you collect all these data you step back and analyze them and you look and you look at them. What sort of like what what jumps out. What are some of the central findings that to your research.
00:55:13.380 --> 00:55:19.800
Jeremy Butler: Sure. Um, so for the quantitative part of so further looking on the recruit side.
00:55:20.940 --> 00:55:36.840
Jeremy Butler: One thing that I found was that they had a moderate level of I'll just say confidence for the sake of simplicity and a minor level of confidence at baseline. So basically the scale was from zero to 100 so as a nine item self efficacy scale. And I asked questions like,
00:55:38.460 --> 00:55:42.720
Jeremy Butler: How confident they were in their ability to control a subject on the ground.
00:55:43.170 --> 00:55:58.260
Jeremy Butler: How confident they were in their ability to defend themselves in a violent encounter. You know what the subject that's larger than though, so it's just a variety of factors that sort of create a comprehensive picture of your level of confidence in a non lethal violent encounter.
00:55:59.310 --> 00:56:12.720
Jeremy Butler: And then I averaged nine items from the answers tested for reliability. And so yeah, so they had approximately 65 out of 100 in terms of the overall mean for the group.
00:56:13.350 --> 00:56:22.500
Jeremy Butler: So that's a moderate level of confidence at the start, I found that females had a lower level of confidence than males at at the baseline.
00:56:23.550 --> 00:56:39.000
Jeremy Butler: Also improved that everybody's confidence improved at post training and a plateau after six months. So, so they were able to improve it significantly from free to post training as a matter of fact 91 91% of the group.
00:56:39.780 --> 00:56:50.550
Jeremy Butler: Expressed it showed improvement from pre to post and then overall it plateau. So they were able to maintain a level of confidence after six months.
00:56:51.120 --> 00:57:07.980
Jeremy Butler: On the job and then let me see what other in terms of the martial art side as a hypothesized those with previous martial arts experience had a higher baseline level of self advocacy in comparison to those with no experience.
00:57:09.450 --> 00:57:19.500
Jeremy Butler: So yeah, so that was that side of it and in terms of the focus groups, I mean that they ended up being a vast because I mean I'm in a room with
00:57:20.220 --> 00:57:28.770
Jeremy Butler: You know, six officers in one night seven in one group and for any other group. So I said it wasn't major in terms of what you traditionally see
00:57:29.610 --> 00:57:38.280
Jeremy Butler: What's going to our saturation. But I thought I did a really good thought was a really good method of sweat. Again, big picture of the study. Overall, so that's why I did the focus groups as well but
00:57:39.120 --> 00:57:46.530
Jeremy Butler: When you get a room full of full of cops sharing stories. You know, I got a lot of data out of that, you know,
00:57:47.880 --> 00:57:50.190
Jeremy Butler: To try to, I guess, to try to summarize it.
00:57:52.020 --> 00:58:01.950
Jeremy Butler: It really a lot of responses was largely driven by their experiences with their use of force encounters somebody's personal struggles and successes in terms of training.
00:58:02.280 --> 00:58:12.450
Jeremy Butler: For the encounters and then also constraints within their departments that they faced in trying to get more more training of generally the things that came up was
00:58:13.980 --> 00:58:22.410
Jeremy Butler: A desire for more training and better training that they were misconception mixed perceptions on what that would look like.
00:58:22.440 --> 00:58:23.070
Tom Baker: In terms of
00:58:23.880 --> 00:58:29.130
Jeremy Butler: What they not even what it would look like what they thought about the current state of their training, some say
00:58:29.760 --> 00:58:39.780
Jeremy Butler: That the quality was okay. It was good enough, but they needed more quantity sunset, that there was no point in improving the quantity because the quality
00:58:40.020 --> 00:58:47.100
Jeremy Butler: Wasn't where we wanted it to be so everybody was in agreement that something needed to change and train and it was just like we're live.
00:58:48.090 --> 00:58:59.400
Jeremy Butler: Everybody also agree that pretty much every story they share the encounter with the vast majority of the encounter ended up on the ground. So everybody said more grappling skills.
00:59:00.090 --> 00:59:06.690
Jeremy Butler: With something that should be considered and also more realistic training methods. So that's another thing that came up as I brought up with the
00:59:07.320 --> 00:59:18.660
Jeremy Butler: Barriers to the training the injury risk bladder departments are sort of worried about their offices getting injured, which is it's a reasonable concern because you don't have this officer.
00:59:19.440 --> 00:59:24.870
Jeremy Butler: Shift anymore. So, um, so I get that aspect of it, but at the same time is like
00:59:25.470 --> 00:59:34.050
Jeremy Butler: It diminished a quality of the training because it was this concern of of getting injured. So, so that was one thing that they brought up in terms of that was just
00:59:34.500 --> 00:59:40.740
Jeremy Butler: Increasing the quality of the training, despite the fact that offices can injure and it's sort of this idea that
00:59:41.550 --> 00:59:54.030
Jeremy Butler: Which I personally agree with this idea that, you know, injuries are inherent within a dangerous Professor profession, so. So to me, this is this is a perspective of somebody officers, but this is mainly me talking right now.
00:59:55.110 --> 01:00:07.050
Jeremy Butler: My feeling is also that you know I'm much rather and officer, get a mild injury and training, then they get in a row situation and they get seriously hurt.
01:00:07.530 --> 01:00:08.310
Jeremy Butler: You know, so
01:00:08.520 --> 01:00:22.140
Jeremy Butler: So I just wanted to echo that, in the in the focus group. So it's one of those things where I get it as a barrier. But I do think it's an area that we have to sort of just some point we got to take some risk. I mean, we're in a really risky profession in the first place, you know,
01:00:23.190 --> 01:00:34.500
Jeremy Butler: So, so those are the major themes and barriers that they talked about. But like I said, it was, it was pretty vast amount of information and I get from the various things. But that those are the big ones that that stood out
01:00:35.550 --> 01:00:43.470
Tom Baker: And so, so you see you're working with these these younger the newer officers and you see the you're able to sort of measure the
01:00:43.830 --> 01:00:55.230
Tom Baker: Efficacy of this of this training and evoking the response that you were, you were sort of hoping for and quantifying it and then you're gathering all this information on on the back end. And this question might not be
01:00:56.190 --> 01:01:07.620
Tom Baker: Directly related to the research, but having examined the new officers and then officers who've been on the job for a while. Was there anything that stood out to you about like the sort of differences between these two.
01:01:07.980 --> 01:01:15.690
Tom Baker: Groups of people as it related to, like, maybe how they thought of the job or the TT defensive tactics specifically. Was there anything that stood out
01:01:16.560 --> 01:01:23.280
Jeremy Butler: Oh well well considering they weren't really the recruit offices wasn't qualitative in nature.
01:01:23.310 --> 01:01:26.190
Tom Baker: Yeah, you didn't get to sit down in it. Yeah, data.
01:01:26.430 --> 01:01:37.380
Jeremy Butler: Did I interviewed on. But one thing that you know i'll say empirically when you just look at the the actual training at the police academy at PGi at the Police Training Institute.
01:01:37.740 --> 01:01:55.320
Jeremy Butler: I mean, these officers were getting a lot of training in a short period of time. So I'm sure they were saturated with that. Whereas the officers in the focus groups, you know, their experiences were more that it wasn't as abrupt, you know, but I will say,
01:01:56.400 --> 01:02:05.940
Jeremy Butler: I guess when I say it wasn't as abrupt the training isn't as frequent obviously as what these recruits. We're getting so so I would imagine that the recruits we're getting more
01:02:07.080 --> 01:02:15.570
Jeremy Butler: A little bit more not overwhelmed, but they're getting all of this information thrown at all, whereas the veterans are like we've been through this. Yeah.
01:02:15.840 --> 01:02:24.480
Jeremy Butler: Oh no, this is good. This is what needs to be worked on. And, you know, etc, etc. One thing I will point out when I look at the comparison of the two
01:02:24.960 --> 01:02:34.230
Jeremy Butler: Specifically regarding self advocacy, like I said that confidence with their defensive tactics was that the recruits confidence is clearly
01:02:34.800 --> 01:02:45.900
Jeremy Butler: Driven by, you know, their previous experiences with martial arts, but more so in this moment their Academy experience and as a direct question I asked why. Why did your
01:02:46.740 --> 01:02:52.290
Jeremy Butler: If your if basically it was like if your confidence increased like what was the week. Did you feel that the academy.
01:02:52.710 --> 01:03:03.630
Jeremy Butler: played a role and you're increasing confidence and the vast majority said yes. Like, literally, like 98% said yes, it was the academy and then at
01:03:04.080 --> 01:03:15.690
Jeremy Butler: 88% said fitness was a component of it, which is a whole nother discussion of the benefits of just general fitness training for police defensive tactics as well.
01:03:16.500 --> 01:03:17.670
Jeremy Butler: But what that
01:03:18.150 --> 01:03:25.800
Jeremy Butler: When we contrast that to the focus groups. One common theme that came up was this experience driven self efficacy
01:03:26.370 --> 01:03:36.060
Jeremy Butler: So you know how I said what the recruits the martial arts could play their previous experience can play the role, but these officers, they really confirm that as well, where they're saying
01:03:36.690 --> 01:03:44.430
Jeremy Butler: When I asked them about self advocacy. They were saying a lot of that competence is driven from their experiences. So they had these
01:03:45.540 --> 01:03:52.020
Jeremy Butler: Over, you know, over a 10 year 20 year career you've accumulated a bunch of situations.
01:03:52.140 --> 01:03:58.080
Jeremy Butler: You know, and these situations were really what kind of drove how they felt about their abilities.
01:03:58.500 --> 01:04:08.070
Jeremy Butler: Well, so, so that that was really interesting. And that is certainly consistent with the social cognitive theory because social kind of theory says regarding self efficacy
01:04:08.400 --> 01:04:20.640
Jeremy Butler: We, you know, one major driver and increase in a person's self advocacy and confidence is true mastery experiences. So give any person can give these people a performance accomplishments
01:04:20.940 --> 01:04:31.470
Jeremy Butler: Morning to do something. And the more they see that they can be successful at it, the higher their level of self advocacy will be so I really saw that sort of played out in the data as well.
01:04:32.010 --> 01:04:38.520
Tom Baker: So, so going out and doing the job and executing a function over and over again, you gain this self efficacy or
01:04:38.820 --> 01:04:51.870
Tom Baker: Confidence in layman's layman's terms, I can see how that might lead to complacency as well, where if you you're getting by. And he think you're accomplishing a task through your proficiency, but really it's just dumb luck that you did get your ass kicked. Yeah.
01:04:52.050 --> 01:04:53.370
Tom Baker: Yes, yeah.
01:04:53.670 --> 01:05:00.660
Jeremy Butler: For sure. But now one thing that's what a combat that was to add to what they were saying with that.
01:05:01.320 --> 01:05:11.160
Jeremy Butler: Though, is this is this is where we get into self regulatory behavior. So those mastery experiences is what I call it from the theory, but those those experiences on the job.
01:05:11.610 --> 01:05:20.670
Jeremy Butler: That led to the levels of confidence. They also reflected on it, right. So, so a lot of it made them go back and say, like, for example, one officer brought up.
01:05:21.090 --> 01:05:34.530
Jeremy Butler: You know, one of the situations. He was in get totally gassed out in a situation like super tired so that experience sort of informed to self regulatory behavior. So now he's like, I need to get to the gym and I need to
01:05:34.890 --> 01:05:35.820
Jeremy Butler: Work on my cardio.
01:05:36.150 --> 01:05:45.510
Jeremy Butler: So, so it does have it can lead to complacency, but it can also lead to if an officer has good self regulatory behavior right underneath it on assessing what just occurred.
01:05:45.930 --> 01:05:56.880
Jeremy Butler: And it could be a rude awakening. I just hope my concern is situations where that rude awakening leads to an offices death or civilians down. So this is why we prefer
01:05:57.810 --> 01:06:09.180
Jeremy Butler: For for them to just trust the other people's experiences and get to the training, rather than waiting for that all their own experience to occur. And it could be a situation where it's their last, you know, so
01:06:09.960 --> 01:06:13.050
Tom Baker: We don't need to brew wakening we could just have people that
01:06:14.400 --> 01:06:18.990
Jeremy Butler: Used to be done. You know, we see it time and time again. So let's, let's do it.
01:06:20.400 --> 01:06:20.910
Tom Baker: So,
01:06:22.110 --> 01:06:35.490
Tom Baker: Let's shift gears over to just ask you a couple quick more questions I've had you on a way longer than I than I should. But I'm having fun. So let me ask you ask everyone this this last question this second last question, what
01:06:36.510 --> 01:06:40.710
Tom Baker: Do you think in terms of policy. So I know like if you
01:06:42.420 --> 01:06:56.820
Tom Baker: If you were Dictator. You're the guy they come to you and they say, you get to decide how we're going to reform policing, you know, you can shape the police defensive tactics, what would you, what would you, what recommendations. What policy recommendations would you make
01:06:57.960 --> 01:07:11.520
Jeremy Butler: Okay. Um, I would require that every department has their own departmental full functioning use of force program. I'm in terms of in terms of
01:07:12.270 --> 01:07:19.440
Jeremy Butler: The quantity of how often they train, I would say, at minimum quarterly training throughout the year.
01:07:20.010 --> 01:07:38.850
Jeremy Butler: And I'm in terms of what's being taught, I would say that the the defensive tactics will need to be ground based or grappling based defensive tactics, because I think those are the most effective for our profession. Um, I would also incorporate
01:07:41.040 --> 01:07:45.270
Jeremy Butler: Like incentives for officers to train on their own as well.
01:07:45.660 --> 01:07:58.590
Jeremy Butler: I think that's a big area that should be used, you know, whether it be, you get a day off if you, you know, maybe do a annual power test and you take this test, you get a day off. If you pass it.
01:07:59.040 --> 01:08:07.650
Jeremy Butler: Or maybe, and this is the big idea I had that I think really will be helpful is and improve relations with the community, right, if we have
01:08:08.370 --> 01:08:23.730
Jeremy Butler: Particularly with martial arts like martial arts schools, if we have these collaboration martial arts schools as well as because like I said, the grappling focus even like local high schools that have wrestling programs. Why are we creating these collaborations with police departments.
01:08:23.790 --> 01:08:27.180
Jeremy Butler: Absolutely going to give off Starbucks. We need to get some quality training.
01:08:27.780 --> 01:08:39.960
Jeremy Butler: With people who are professionals in these areas. And also, now you're getting to know these people. So it has that dual benefit where you're getting to know people in your community. You guys are getting mutual
01:08:40.740 --> 01:08:57.630
Jeremy Butler: Benefit from the circumstances in our offices, I get that training. You know, so, so I think that's one area that could definitely be you know utilized overall but um but yeah I hadn't really thought about that question in terms of from a vast scale. So these are kind of ideas.
01:08:57.990 --> 01:09:05.640
Tom Baker: Can I talk about just the idea. You just put out there. So, so that would be so let me just so I'm clear on the way you're thinking, am I look like so. So you could have a
01:09:08.280 --> 01:09:19.350
Tom Baker: High School wrestling program near the precinct. And the officers of the precinct go train at the with the wrestling team and the officers get training.
01:09:19.740 --> 01:09:26.460
Tom Baker: And maybe some of the more advanced officers help coach, the kids and the officers and the officers and the kids are rolling
01:09:27.270 --> 01:09:36.840
Tom Baker: Wrestling together and learning the skills together. So not only are you enhancing the skills of the officers, but you're also giving them an opportunity to interact in a non enforcement role.
01:09:37.170 --> 01:09:43.950
Tom Baker: And then find some way to competent like either time offered or just have it be on their shift. Would that be something that you would want
01:09:44.610 --> 01:09:53.970
Jeremy Butler: Absolutely, yeah, that's it. Yeah, we have to deal with the idea of costs. Right. And how do we how do we budget this, you know, but my thing with that is
01:09:54.360 --> 01:09:58.800
Jeremy Butler: You got to have priorities, whatever you if you if you prioritize something like if you
01:09:59.070 --> 01:10:06.540
Jeremy Butler: One thing that came up in the focus groups was like they threaten to, you know, fine departments, if they don't have certain things in place.
01:10:06.840 --> 01:10:10.980
Jeremy Butler: And then maybe an incentive for departments to make sure that they get that things in order. So
01:10:11.280 --> 01:10:22.020
Jeremy Butler: I mean, I don't know about that specifically. Again, that's kind of going beyond my realm in terms of the policy review, but the idea is we have to prioritize this and if we prioritize this we're gonna find ways to make it work.
01:10:22.680 --> 01:10:32.880
Jeremy Butler: Like don't give the excuses just figure out a way to make it work. But in terms of my idea with that community relations. That's something I've been thinking about for a while. So absolutely, having those opportunities where
01:10:33.300 --> 01:10:47.640
Jeremy Butler: If we use the wrestling team, for example, which I think is great because you know these are youth that they could be interacted with on the job. It'd be a whole different interaction, if I can say, you know, if I if I've trained with with john on the mats.
01:10:47.790 --> 01:10:53.520
Jeremy Butler: And now I'm on duty and John's acting up that then, you know, John's on the corner acting crazy, I can say hey john come here wish.
01:10:54.000 --> 01:11:05.460
Jeremy Butler: You know, rather than it being a stranger, and I have this you know I may have the wrong picture for what for what I'm looking at them. So I think it's a way to connect the community. Now, how that specifically looks
01:11:06.180 --> 01:11:20.160
Jeremy Butler: I mean, that's going to be up to know those details are up to how they shape it, you know, it could be the wrestling team work with the offices directly the offices coaching them. It could be the offices us in the space, you know, outside of that.
01:11:20.190 --> 01:11:23.430
Jeremy Butler: Like whatever. Yeah, just trading opportunities.
01:11:23.550 --> 01:11:34.140
Jeremy Butler: For interaction and collaboration with the community that's going to get mutual benefit to both sides in terms of not only training, but just the engagement piece of it so
01:11:34.440 --> 01:11:34.740
01:11:35.880 --> 01:11:36.270
Jeremy Butler: Go ahead.
01:11:36.690 --> 01:11:51.240
Tom Baker: I'm saying it's prioritizing it it's it's as a department saying this is not something that's extra. This is something we're going to, we think is an important part of our police function. This community engagement activity and and putting it front and center.
01:11:51.540 --> 01:11:55.440
Jeremy Butler: Yes. And when you do that, then, then it's it becomes a matter of
01:11:55.770 --> 01:12:05.850
Jeremy Butler: Not whether or not we should do it. It's like, how are we going to do this if this has to happen. How are we going to make it happen like period isn't. It's not an opportunity for this not to happen. Now there are barriers.
01:12:06.300 --> 01:12:17.790
Jeremy Butler: To this I mean we still have that issue of finances, we still have the issue of injury risk being worried about her need officers and it's things that you have to think about that, you have to navigate but but to me it's like
01:12:18.390 --> 01:12:25.350
Jeremy Butler: We're in a profession where we are problem solvers police officers are we solve. That's what we do when we go on calls, there's a problem.
01:12:25.740 --> 01:12:36.660
Jeremy Butler: Our job is to find a way to to create some type of resolution. So apply those skills to making this work, you know, and as you can see, this is a topic on passionate about. I'm over here like
01:12:37.830 --> 01:12:38.400
Tom Baker: I feel it.
01:12:38.790 --> 01:12:47.850
Jeremy Butler: But yeah, I feel really strongly about that. I feel like if if we really wanted it to happen and we value it. Then we're going to make it happen. You know, so
01:12:48.660 --> 01:12:57.870
Tom Baker: So I'm gonna let you go. The last thing I just want to put it in your court and give you the last word. Can you just tell us remind everyone, where you're going next.
01:12:58.440 --> 01:13:04.410
Tom Baker: Where you'll be and I'll put a link to the to anything that if you want any
01:13:05.100 --> 01:13:18.270
Tom Baker: Profiles or materials related send it to me. I'll put the links in the description below here for anyone was checking the materials, just tell us what you've got. Next, your new your new position and then any parting sort of thoughts you want to leave with listeners.
01:13:18.630 --> 01:13:28.710
Jeremy Butler: Okay, yeah, I'm open to the area. I'll be transitioning to a charisma, Assistant Professor no promotion and performance at Judson University.
01:13:29.430 --> 01:13:36.540
Jeremy Butler: And so I still plan to to continue, you know, advocating for police train them and I'm doing my research my writing.
01:13:37.350 --> 01:13:45.420
Jeremy Butler: As well as moving into roles where I can do you know training for different departments speaking to different departments where the BB PA conferences.
01:13:45.750 --> 01:13:58.710
Jeremy Butler: Or directly with agencies, so just building relationships in the communities that I that I that I go to. So, so yeah that's that's what's up next for me. I want to stay connected to the field, but my my day job would be teaching you know
01:13:59.100 --> 01:14:07.110
Jeremy Butler: Teaching Kinesiology essentially exercise science in terms of party thoughts. I mean, I would just say, I'll be we are in a
01:14:07.920 --> 01:14:20.550
Jeremy Butler: Tough time right now. I think this is a time where not only community, the community and law enforcement really needs to sort of come together and try to work together for solutions and for things that need to we need to
01:14:21.270 --> 01:14:32.070
Jeremy Butler: Work Tour, so that we can reach common ground, you know, and not think we are at a point when people under understand that I need to. I think we need to make sure that
01:14:33.630 --> 01:14:39.150
Jeremy Butler: When we are developing these ideas. They're not out of anger, but out of
01:14:39.600 --> 01:14:49.320
Jeremy Butler: Really sitting down and looking at what is the best way to resolve the issues that that we have right now. And so to me that's the big picture. I think agencies need to look
01:14:49.710 --> 01:14:56.190
Jeremy Butler: Inward as far as what what do we as an individual department, we need to do to improve our communities. And then also needs to be looked at.
01:14:56.430 --> 01:15:12.840
Jeremy Butler: on a national scale. So it's like I said before, it's multi layer like everybody kind of needs to to check where we each layer and what needs to be improved, and I think that, that'll get us somewhere you know it's gonna take some time, but but it's progress, you know,
01:15:13.650 --> 01:15:24.330
Tom Baker: And we've got to start somewhere. I think that's a beautiful place though to leave the conversation and I hope maybe maybe a year or so down the road. Once you get settled ending come back and check in and let us know how you're doing.
01:15:24.660 --> 01:15:25.950
Jeremy Butler: Sure. Okay.
01:15:25.980 --> 01:15:28.770
Tom Baker: Thank you very much. It was great talking to you and have a great rest of the night.
01:15:29.100 --> 01:15:29.520