On this episode, Professor Ed Maguire from Arizona State University joins me to discuss the current crisis in policing. We talk about his working-class path through academia and journey to martial arts, choke holds in law enforcement, the Rayshard Brooks police homicide, and the current state of police defensive tactics in America. Professor Maguire studies policing and is a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu instructor.
His FREE recent book on managing protests:
Edward Maguire is a professor of criminology and criminal justice at Arizona State University, where he also serves as an associate director of the Center for Violence Prevention and Community Safety. He received his Ph.D. in Criminal Justice from the State University of New York at Albany in 1997.
Professor Maguire’s research focuses primarily on policing and violence. He is also interested in the application of criminology to the study of crime and justice issues in the developing world. His recent research has focused on procedural justice and legitimacy, police response to protests, gangs and gang violence, officer safety and wellness, and evaluating the impact of violent crime control initiatives.
Professor Maguire has lectured or carried out research in 24 nations on five continents. He has also written or edited five books and more than 90 journal articles and book chapters on various themes related to policing, violence, gangs, research methodology, and comparative criminology.
Ed Maguire is a brown belt in Gracie Jiu Jitsu under Master Pedro Sauer. Ed studied directly under Master Sauer at his headquarters in Northern Virginia. He has also studied under several members of the Gracie family, including Grandmasters Relson and Rickson Gracie.
Ed's goal is to teach his students authentic Gracie Jiu Jitsu with a strong focus on self-defense. He believes that anyone can do Jiu Jitsu, regardless of age, sex, size, or athletic ability. He strives to maintain a safe and supportive training environment where people can learn at their own pace.
As a university professor for more than 20 years, Ed loves teaching and helping to bring out the best in his students, both in the classroom and on the mats.
Tom Baker has been a PhD student in UMSL's Criminology and Criminal Justice program since 2017. Tom received his BA in Political Science from Arizona State University and worked as a police officer for approximately nine years. His research interests include police culture, use of force, and qualitative research methods. https://www.umsl.edu/ccj/Graduate%20Students/baker.html
Bjj in policing, should police learn brazilian jiu jitsu, how to fix the police, police use of deadly force training, how to stop the riots, how to end the protests, what should police do, how can the police, rayshard brooks reactions, podcast about the police, learn about the police, how to reform the police, ed Maguire, 21st century policingSupport the show
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Tom Baker: Hey, thanks. Thanks a lot for joining me. I really appreciate the time I know these are crazy times for everybody. And so I appreciate it. Can you can you, I did a brief introduction
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Tom Baker: Ahead of time. And I was just wondering. Before we get started, just so people sort of know where you're coming from. Can you tell us a little bit about you. So, like, where did you grow up.
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Edward Maguire: I grew up in Newburyport Massachusetts, which is the north eastern corner of Massachusetts near the border of New Hampshire and near the ocean beautiful seaside community and lovely, lovely place to grow up.
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Tom Baker: I i've been familiar. I went to high school in New Hampshire. So I spent
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Tom Baker: Okay Newburyport yeah
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Tom Baker: And did you, how did you come to study policing so you studied policing. What, what, what took you. What was your sort of path to this field of study.
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Edward Maguire: I had an uncle was actually a great uncle, who, who was a police officer in Newburyport for 26 years and was kind of a hero of mine, kind of like a grandfather type figure in my life and just a really, you know, big burly guy who who was just a really kind hearted.
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Edward Maguire: Super, you know, fair friendly loving guy.
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Edward Maguire: And then, you know, one day when I was a kid, my neighbor made the the awful mistake of beating up his wife and then tried to take a bunch of my uncle when it came to intervene in that situation. And that turned out to be a mistake for my neighbor.
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Edward Maguire: And I saw side of my uncle that I had never seen before because he was always a big teddy bear. And the next thing you know he's dragging this guy down the steps of his of his house. And I was fascinated by
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Edward Maguire: The two sides, you know, they used to call it the iron fist and the velvet glove, you know,
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Edward Maguire: Right fascinated by just that line of work and I, I went to college with the I was a blue collar kid first generation college student and I intended to become a police officer.
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Edward Maguire: And the only reason I didn't become a police officer was because at some point in my college career. I had a very influential Professor Larry Siegel.
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Edward Maguire: People know Larry Siegel, because he's written a lot of the introductory criminology and criminal justice textbooks and Larry Siegel was my professor at the University of low at the time.
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Edward Maguire: And which is where all the blue collar kids and kids couldn't afford to go elsewhere. When and at one point, Larry Siegel pulled me aside and said, said, you know, you know, I really like your work. You know, you're a smart guy. You should get a PhD. And so I asked Larry single. What's the PhD.
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Edward Maguire: No, I don't want
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Edward Maguire: And Larry had gone to the State University of New York at Albany to their school of criminal justice and
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Edward Maguire: Boy he just kind of he was in my ear, you know, mostly my junior and senior year of college about going to get a PhD and so I ended up going all day, because that's where Larry told me I should go and the rest is history.
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Tom Baker: Yeah, it's we, I think we have some things in common. I sort of come from a working class background and
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Tom Baker: Even though my mother. When I was a kid. When I say go get do anything you can you can do anything when you're surrounded by
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Tom Baker: Your, you know, like your peers and the people you're around, you start to see
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Tom Baker: Like, What types of jobs they and things they go into, and I would have thought of like being, you know, a professor as something that
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Tom Baker: Like the doctors kid like there were other kids who did things like that. And that wasn't something I considered a realistic.
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Tom Baker: Sort of path for me. And that was sort of the same was that, is that how you like felt, did you, was it that you thought it was inaccessible or you just didn't even consider it.
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Edward Maguire: It's almost like I didn't even know it existed.
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Tom Baker: Right.
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Edward Maguire: You just never would have thought of it. I mean, when I was growing up the performance measure that, you know, for kids in my social class in my community was
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Edward Maguire: When you grow up, you should get a job that has benefits right like health benefits vacation paid vacation and things like that. So, you know, for me growing up that was always my performance measure. I'm going to get a job as benefits.
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Edward Maguire: Mm hmm. And, you know, so the bar was pretty low.
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Edward Maguire: And so, you know, but you know the benefit of all of that and I had, I was really fortunate. A couple of years ago, the school of criminal justice of Albany saw fit to give me a
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Edward Maguire: Distinguished Alumni Award, and they let me give their commencement address for the school of criminal justice. And so I returned to Albany after 20 plus years. And did that and
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Edward Maguire: I invited my dad was a career auto mechanic. My dad quit high school at ninth grade and you know they sat up in the front row. And I actually, I was really grateful for the opportunity to be able to say, even though I approached this career from kind of a different angle than most people.
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Edward Maguire: I was really well prepared for it because my dad was the hardest working human being I had ever known.
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Edward Maguire: You know, and going to graduate school with that kind of work ethic that blue collar work ethic. I mean, I still have it. To this day, you know,
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Tom Baker: You know,
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Edward Maguire: For me my whole career I've just outworked most of the people around me and and that turns out to have been a really amazing background to prepare me for this career and I never knew that was going to happen. But here we are. So
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Tom Baker: Yeah, I think there's, it seems like the like my working class friends and my you know friends that are like part of them managerial car sorta class they
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Tom Baker: They value very different things like working class people. They just, they tend to focus on things like you know disciplining yourself to
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Tom Baker: get things done. But getting a job with real benefits and pay and like
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Tom Baker: It's down to earth and I can see how that would be an advantage and academia, where so many people spend so much time including myself caught up and thinking about them selves and how they feel about things and they don't get get a lot done i i
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Tom Baker: Believe like talk about the benefits. I think that was one of the major things that drew me to policing was
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Tom Baker: My like my grandparents. I grew up sort of book, my mother, but also spent a lot of time with my grandparents who grew up during the Depression and they
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Tom Baker: Both fourth grade education, but the hardest working people you'd ever met in your life.
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Tom Baker: And policing to them was, will you have stability, you have, you're going to have benefits, you're not going to get laid off.
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Tom Baker: No matter how bad things get, you've got this, you know, sort of security. So I think that for me as a working class person. I think a lot of police officers.
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Tom Baker: The reason they go into the field, a lot of it has to do with this idea of getting a pension security decent health care. So I don't think people think about that a lot like
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Tom Baker: People think well what drives people to become a police officer. I think that's a big part of it. You agree with that or
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Edward Maguire: Yeah, absolutely. I think it's you know it's it's job security. And I think that's driven generations of police officers to that career.
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Tom Baker: And people see their, their uncles and and fathers and they see the stability that comes of which traditionally, there has been some stability. I'm not so sure if that's if that's true anymore.
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Tom Baker: Do you you sort of occupy a variety of roles you you're not only are you do you study policing, but you also have are involved in Jiu Jitsu. Can you just tell us a little bit about your path into you know how you discovered jujitsu and sort of where you are in your jujitsu journey.
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Edward Maguire: Yeah, so, um, I when I was in college, I you know I like I said, I went to the University what's now called the University of Massachusetts at Lowell
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Edward Maguire: Was there was called the University of low but lol is a pretty tough community in Massachusetts.
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Edward Maguire: Historically, and had a lot of social problem with my understanding is it's been cleaned up a lot over the years since I've been back but historically was a pretty rough and tumble town, and when I was there, I was always interested in boxing and so
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Tom Baker: I think boxing is a big boxing town right long kickboxing town.
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Edward Maguire: And it's, it's so when I was there I wandered over to
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Edward Maguire: To art remodels Western gym.
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Edward Maguire: Pretty famous gym in the in the boxing community in the in the northeast and I just kind of wanted in there and I met art. He was a super nice guy, very welcoming. I was a junior. I think at the time and
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Edward Maguire: I just said, well, I'd like to learn how to box and and so art and some of his instructors taught me how to box and and quite frankly, it was very good at least in the beginning and
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Edward Maguire: So that was kind of my introduction to martial arts and really enjoyed that. So when I went to Albany to start working on my PhD.
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Edward Maguire: I ended up taking my interest in boxing with me and I ended up
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Edward Maguire: I ended up going to
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Edward Maguire: A gym in the it was funny because our models Western Jim was a mixed ethnicity. So you had an African American white, Hispanic, and even some Asian of fighters in there. This is, by the way, where the film The Fighter was. That's where, that's where Irish Micky Ward came from that.
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Edward Maguire: And. But anyway, so when I went to Albany, you didn't have that. I mean, you had black boxing gyms. That was it.
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Edward Maguire: And I grew up in Newburyport Massachusetts, which is almost entirely a white community had very little exposure until I started boxing to African Americans and all i i just had no
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Edward Maguire: Growing up in new report, you just don't have that and
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Edward Maguire: And so, and so our model is Western Jim was sort of mixed race and ethnicity and Albany all the boxing gyms, for the most part are black boxing gyms and so I ended up being the only white guy and on all black boxing gym in a really depressed area of Albany.
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Edward Maguire: And I had a fantastic coach named Ray Holland Ray had been a military boxer really really wonderful man.
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Edward Maguire: And so I spent another couple of years boxing there. And that was really enjoyable getting beat up.
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Edward Maguire: But really, you know, learning how to box from people who really knew what they were doing and I just at some point had this kind of epiphany after I left Albany that all I know about how to defend myself is to punch somebody
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Edward Maguire: And I don't know. You know, I would like to, you know, no more than than just being able to punch somebody. I'm a man of peace. I don't want
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Edward Maguire: Anything.
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Edward Maguire: To get out of trouble you know and and so at the time, you know, hoist Gracie early fights in the UFC that really influenced me seeing hoist Gracie, be able to take down these much larger, much stronger opponents and any did a lot of it without ever even throwing a strike.
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Tom Baker: And I was, this was this was like the early 90s.
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Edward Maguire: Is when I really was sort of fascinated by the fact that this
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Edward Maguire: Smaller weaker guy could could defeat these larger stronger opponents that he never had to do. The only thing that I knew which is to hit people
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Edward Maguire: And so that's what I got into to to jujitsu at the time. My first academic job was in Omaha, Nebraska, and I started studying Jiu Jitsu out there and
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Edward Maguire: I ended up leaving Jiu Jitsu for a lot of years I was a single dad, and it was just really difficult to train and stuff like that. And so, ended up coming back to it, much later.
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Edward Maguire: Ended up getting a blue belt from Grandmaster Elson Gracie. His schools and
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Edward Maguire: At the time I was living in the Washington DC area and his schools kind of blew up for a while. And so I was out of jujitsu for a while and and
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Edward Maguire: And then I just had the great fortune of master Pedro sour happened to relocate from Utah to the Washington DC area and the rest is history. I joined joined up with Master Pedro sour school back when I was a blue belt and have been with them ever since and
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Edward Maguire: Trained at his headquarters, you know, he's got about 120 schools worldwide, and I was at the headquarters and so got to see all the people who came from all over the world on a weekly basis to come train with him and learn from him and
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Edward Maguire: You know, forge connections with martial artists from all over the planet and just really amazing experience being able to train with somebody is like the combination of humility and skill.
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Edward Maguire: Man heroes hours for me unprecedented
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Edward Maguire: And I wouldn't want to have anybody else to look up to as a jujitsu mentor.
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Tom Baker: Yeah, it's, it's, you talk about that epiphany that you had where you said, wow, like you saw hoist in those early days, controlling these much larger
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Tom Baker: Men in this and how it was done with skill. Mine was in in the army. And Washington State, and I had just arrived at my my unit.
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Tom Baker: And I was, you know, you know, 18 years old and I was big and strong football player. And I thought, I can mash anybody
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Tom Baker: And we had this in my, in my my unit, we had a thing. It was called the combative pit, and it was like a like a little area with
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Tom Baker: Like wood chips and once a week, we would go in there and do combat lives and the grace.
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Tom Baker: Grace. Grace. These would come out and train back in the early 90s. It was one of the Ranger battalions, and they had a relationship battalions. They were trained some guys
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Tom Baker: And then those guys would train the rest of the soldiers is very rudimentary. It was like you know guard and Matt, you know, just very basic stuff, but very useful and this
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Tom Baker: You could call anybody out during the the the grappling so you rank didn't matter, kind of a thing. And this corporal looked at me to get over here. Baker, and he was my boss and and i thought. Finally, I am going to get to. I'm going to grind this man into the
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Tom Baker: He's been riding me and treating me like garbage since I got here and I'm going to put the hurt on him and he was like a little chimpanzee when I got my hands on him. He just
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Tom Baker: immediately took my back was toying with me and like I had there was nothing I could do. And it was like an epiphany. I was like, wow, there's, there's something you can learn
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Tom Baker: It's I still matters, but it was like it was like a shot. It was a real shock to me. So that was kind of by
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Tom Baker: My moment where I realized that it was it was never did you have, what, what was it like for you when you first when you first started
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Tom Baker: Training. Did you did you take to it right away, or was it fresh. Was it frustrating. Was it
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Tom Baker: Like for me, it's a there's a everything when I if I take a break and I go back. There's a panic that I feel that I have to learn to deal with what, what was it like for you beginning to immerse yourself in the sport.
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Edward Maguire: Well i mean it's it's humbling because, you know, there's the psychologist at Harvard who came up with the theory of multiple intelligences and I've read. Read the theory and read some of the work on it and
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Edward Maguire: There's nothing in my life like Jiu Jitsu that convinces me up the validity of that theory.
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Edward Maguire: I he has that one branch of intelligence. I think he calls it kinesthetic or can you see a logical or something like that. But it's your movement of your body through space and time.
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Edward Maguire: and place that in most areas of my life of a pretty smart guy in a net branch of intelligence. I'm a pretty dumb guy. And so I watched over the years, you know,
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Edward Maguire: You know instructor would teach them move, you know, show it for one minute or two minutes and then we'd all go drill it
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Edward Maguire: And what I would see as all the people around me would be able to do the move right away. I wouldn't, I couldn't do it. I have to see that damn move 100 times before I get it.
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Edward Maguire: And I just realized, you know, there's just something about the way my brain functions that I can't watch a body in motion.
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Edward Maguire: Do a set of maneuvers and then immediately replicate those maneuvers. I don't know what it is about my brain chemistry or my wiring that doesn't allow for that. But, um, and so I I'm a slow slow learner and
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Edward Maguire: And I think it's really influenced my my my teaching as a Jiu Jitsu instructor I I teach to myself, essentially, which is to the lowest common denominator. I teach to the person who really isn't gifted and does it just immediately get it.
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Tom Baker: I found that the smaller like the people who who have to really rely on learning the techniques and can't rely on athleticism.
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Tom Baker: Or that and that type of intelligence and just seeing and doing and smaller people in jujitsu. I don't know if you feel this way, but they tend to develop better better technique over time because they need to realize the you've noticed that as well.
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Edward Maguire: Yeah, and I mean master sour used to joke about this, going back to the very beginning. I mean, Master sour used to say to us, it's a, you know,
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Edward Maguire: Yeah, you can beat up that little guy right now, but trust me when I tell you a couple of years down the road if he or she keeps coming
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Edward Maguire: My friend, you're in for a world of hurt. So be nice now yeah i mean the the smaller the smaller people in jujitsu
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Edward Maguire: Their pathway is more difficult. They get smashed on the way up, you know, they, they end up with larger, heavier people on top of them and grinding on them and all of that kind of thing and and
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Edward Maguire: But what happens because they go through that experience and they're not able to respond with muscle and strength and all of these sort of dysfunctional ways of responding
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Edward Maguire: They end up developing better technique and so beware the smaller technical person. And that's what master sour is he's a smaller more technical guy I had him to my school last year. He came to visit.
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Edward Maguire: And meet my students, and so forth. And I mean that was the one reaction. Everybody had was he so little.
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Edward Maguire: How is one of the world's most you know one of the world's toughest men so little. And so skinny. They were really shocked by that and, especially, you know, he had a
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Edward Maguire: Challenge fight back in Utah. Many years ago with Mr Utah bodybuilder, who was just a giant guy look like the Incredible Hulk and master star was able to be in fairly easily. And, and so a lot of my students that seen that video.
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Edward Maguire: But when that video was shot.
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Edward Maguire: You know, he was a little younger, and you know it was never a big guy, but he was certainly bigger than he is now. Now he's in his 60s.
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Edward Maguire: And so when my students saw you know here's this guy is just really, really, you know, a smaller skinnier guy.
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Edward Maguire: I think it really locked in for them. How powerful. What we do is really look like that and still really, really be a very tough human being. I think that was that was useful for them to see just see him in person. Right.
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Edward Maguire: Understand that wow, I can do this. It doesn't matter that I weigh 120 pounds. I'm going to be fine. I just have to stick to the knitting learn jujitsu by the book, and I'm going to be okay.
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Tom Baker: And that and you said the challenges, just so people are not familiar, this was when
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Tom Baker: Jiu Jitsu is sort of emerging as a martial art in the United States around the world. This was what happened where practitioners would invite other martial artists and strong people from around the community.
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Tom Baker: If you want to come in and disprove this and show that you can be our techniques and then they would sometimes put out the smaller, less advanced students to my sort of as a way to demonstrate to potential students. Am I on the right track here.
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Edward Maguire: Yeah, so we have it easy as Jiu Jitsu practitioners today because we've mostly you know our predecessors have
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Edward Maguire: Gone hurt of proving this martial art to the world. But you know when the Brazilians first came to the United States.
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Edward Maguire: You know, they had to prove themselves and a lot of people would call them out and challenge them. And actually, when Mr. Utah challenge Pedro sour.
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Edward Maguire: Pedro lifted, Utah. He barely spoke English at the time he was still learning how to speak English. You know, he spoke, Portuguese, he said, and
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Edward Maguire: So, somebody had put that somebody had said on the radio had challenged him. And so one of his students said, you know, Professor sour. There's a man on the radio challenging you to
00:20:55.530 --> 00:21:10.080
Edward Maguire: Add so professor said, Okay, I'll fight him, he never saw him. And so I imagine it was a little bit of a surprise when he saw for the first time. I mean, this was a huge guy 250 pound bodybuilder, Mr Utah.
00:21:11.130 --> 00:21:14.790
Edward Maguire: And, you know, Pedro was probably more than 100 pounds less than him.
00:21:15.900 --> 00:21:24.000
Edward Maguire: And so, but in his mindset as the Brazilian Jiu Jitsu fighter and as a direct descendant of the founder of the art.
00:21:24.840 --> 00:21:35.310
Edward Maguire: Elio Gracie Grandmaster Helio Gracie in his mind, it would not even have occurred to him to not accept the challenge for him. It's just you know Grandmaster alien taught him this martial art.
00:21:36.450 --> 00:21:41.820
Edward Maguire: And you have to defend the martial art. So if somebody is challenging it you accept the challenge and it was not a
00:21:42.120 --> 00:21:54.330
Edward Maguire: Violent thing, you know, it was not. You're not trying to hurt anybody or anything like that, you're just trying to demonstrate the benefits of this martial art, you're trying to demonstrate that it really does work. And so they accepted all commerce.
00:21:54.750 --> 00:22:01.410
Tom Baker: And you and I've watched a bunch of the old, the old footage and and you, you'll see that the Gracie, guys.
00:22:02.100 --> 00:22:10.890
Tom Baker: Doing any people get upset and they can be sometimes, there would be flash where you would see the Gracie guy gain a dominant position than us like open hand strikes.
00:22:11.730 --> 00:22:20.820
Tom Baker: Or just threaten the person and give them opportunities to just submit because it wasn't about humiliating or hurting person. It was about them as being a future student
00:22:20.940 --> 00:22:31.200
Tom Baker: Of saying you look you've been on the wrong. You've been a different path. Consider this path and as a demonstration of the community. So it was, it definitely not a malicious sort of thing.
00:22:31.890 --> 00:22:41.160
Edward Maguire: No, and after Pedro beat Mr Utah, Mr. You talk came and studied it as Academy and always, you know, he always kind of aimed for that, you know, and
00:22:41.670 --> 00:22:52.080
Edward Maguire: I'm going to, I'm going to defeat this person. I'm not gonna let them beat me up. I will defeat them typically by submission, not what strikes where the person can tap out and say, Okay, I give up. I say uncle.
00:22:53.220 --> 00:23:01.200
Edward Maguire: And then afterwards, be super nice to them super kind of them and invite them to come train at your Academy with you and many times they would do that. And I think that's a beautiful part of our art.
00:23:01.740 --> 00:23:06.900
Tom Baker: So, Mr. Mr. Utah had his combative pit moment like I did a little harsher maybe
00:23:07.620 --> 00:23:24.000
Tom Baker: Exactly so. So you're so so you're you have expertise in policing, you have expertise in jujitsu over an extended period of time you've watched both of these sort of cultures evolve and change and grow and
00:23:25.800 --> 00:23:34.950
Tom Baker: As a person who understands violence and as a person who understands policing. Can you maybe because I think people when they, when they think of a police officer. If you're not familiar with policing.
00:23:35.190 --> 00:23:44.880
Tom Baker: I know before I was a police officer. I don't know, police officers. They know how to shoot and fight and you know use violence in an expert way. They're the people who are trained to do that. That's their job.
00:23:45.660 --> 00:23:52.830
Tom Baker: Can you tell us a little bit about what, what does a police officer, the and and I know there's a lot of variability, there's, you know, 18,000 different departments.
00:23:53.130 --> 00:24:08.130
Tom Baker: But if you if you randomly selected a handful of cops from around the country. Can you just tell the listener maybe what would you expect that person to have in terms of training, when it comes to the use of unarmed combat like how to defend themselves or use violence to control a suspect.
00:24:09.240 --> 00:24:26.010
Edward Maguire: Yeah, so, you know, police, there is no centralized system of training police officer police officers on defensive tactics. And so you end up with this sort of crazy potpourri of of training, some of which is ridiculous and some of which is good and everything in between.
00:24:27.060 --> 00:24:43.590
Edward Maguire: And, you know, but overall I think the problem is there's just not much of the training. You know, so even when you do have training as appropriate content like good good valid types of techniques being taught. There's just not a lot of it and so
00:24:45.060 --> 00:24:56.670
Edward Maguire: We end up seeing it hurts my heart as somebody who studies policing. And as somebody who studies martial arts to watch these videos of encounters between police officers and the public.
00:24:57.480 --> 00:25:15.900
Edward Maguire: Where you know when things go hands on you just often see police just quite frankly just not knowing what to do. I mean, I think that's the bottom line and we had an officer involved shooting that resulted in the death of
00:25:17.400 --> 00:25:31.050
Edward Maguire: A member of the public here back in, I think, November, December and and you know in the in the fight between the officer and the suspect the officer ended up following falling on his back.
00:25:32.310 --> 00:25:38.250
Edward Maguire: And didn't just know what to do from his back and so
00:25:39.600 --> 00:25:48.870
Edward Maguire: Ended up having to shoot the suspect that it was a it was a valid shooting it was not questioning in any way the legality of the shooting. I mean, it was a valid shooting.
00:25:49.410 --> 00:25:57.330
Edward Maguire: The only thing I would say it was it was a shooting that could have been avoided literally with like, you know, the I taught a student
00:25:58.020 --> 00:26:06.900
Edward Maguire: Our school just reopened after the coronavirus or not after we're still in the middle of it, but our school just reopened or jujitsu school just last week and had a brand new student
00:26:07.590 --> 00:26:19.050
Edward Maguire: First day student and on the first day of the students class I taught. What do you do if you're on your back and you have a standing opponent was trying to, you know, hit your kick you jump on you right
00:26:19.710 --> 00:26:23.970
Edward Maguire: Just how do you position your body and how do you keep that person away from you. So they can't hurt you.
00:26:25.110 --> 00:26:35.790
Edward Maguire: Literally, the very first day of Jiu Jitsu training. That's what I'm teaching this student because it's such a common scenario to have a person in your on your back and you have a aggressor coming at
00:26:37.380 --> 00:26:49.320
Edward Maguire: This police officer. I really truly believe if this police officer had had a week of Jiu Jitsu training on and I don't mean a week of 40 hours, I mean. Oh, right.
00:26:49.830 --> 00:26:58.560
Edward Maguire: Three one hour classes just what to do from the back. When you have somebody aggressive toward you. I don't think there would have been a shooting.
00:26:59.940 --> 00:27:08.790
Edward Maguire: And again, I'm not criticizing the officer, because the officer just simply didn't have that training right agencies and even states.
00:27:09.660 --> 00:27:12.840
Edward Maguire: Are not providing the types of training.
00:27:13.260 --> 00:27:20.010
Edward Maguire: That would actually and it and I think people get a little confused by this, they think, well, if they're studying Jiu Jitsu they're going to hurt people.
00:27:20.250 --> 00:27:30.750
Edward Maguire: Most of the situation pricey Jiu Jitsu has been successfully applied and policing would result in a suspect sustaining less damage or perhaps even no damage, not more
00:27:31.740 --> 00:27:42.240
Edward Maguire: This is just how to teach police officers, the basics of what to do, what their bodies were to position themselves to be able to control a suspect without having to use violence.
00:27:42.840 --> 00:27:52.200
Tom Baker: And I would agree. I mean, I've watched so for for my for the project I've been working on. I i've been gone. I've gone through, like, read thousands of
00:27:52.440 --> 00:27:53.130
Tom Baker: Accounts of
00:27:53.280 --> 00:28:09.000
Tom Baker: Officer involved police related deaths and I'll watch video. So if there's a if there's a newspaper report. I'll read that. But if there's a video I'll watch that as as well. So I've watched just tons of these deadly force encounters. It's kind of morbid, but
00:28:10.200 --> 00:28:29.100
Tom Baker: I see it over and over again where I watch something take place and i and i and it's immediately apparent to me that the police officer has no idea how to react that they're that they're in fear and that as well. When I was when I was a police officer and I was
00:28:30.420 --> 00:28:40.470
Tom Baker: encountering a situation where I was terrified which a few times I was, and I could, I could see my body reacting in ways that I had trained it to react.
00:28:40.950 --> 00:28:46.650
Tom Baker: So like I was in a deadly force encounter with a firearm and to shoot somebody, it wasn't as though I
00:28:47.430 --> 00:28:54.330
Tom Baker: Right there, decided how to shoot it was my body reacting to the to the dangerous situation with what I had.
00:28:54.840 --> 00:29:03.090
Tom Baker: Plugged into the brain and the same thing when I was in a in a fistfight or something like that. I was scared, but I was also like
00:29:03.510 --> 00:29:09.630
Tom Baker: Okay, well, this guy is stupid like I was able to think, you know, I was able to think rationally.
00:29:09.900 --> 00:29:13.170
Tom Baker: I was like, okay, I need to get a dog. I'm going to get a dominant position where his hands.
00:29:13.350 --> 00:29:23.070
Tom Baker: You know, I can use my need a pen. His arm there and get I can get on the radio, you know, like the other thing, but if you don't have those skills and they're not reinforced on a regular basis. My opinion.
00:29:23.580 --> 00:29:33.450
Tom Baker: When something traumatic happens you're just going to do whatever you can do to survive. And if you don't know anything, then one thing you have been taught to do is shoot
00:29:35.310 --> 00:29:43.290
Tom Baker: It's, yeah. It's really bothers me when I see something where, I think, just a few days in a room with someone like you
00:29:43.740 --> 00:29:56.580
Tom Baker: Could have taught them the basic skills to get by. Now you you say that this is something that's very just very minimal training could make an can improve things and I agree. If you but if you were
00:29:57.240 --> 00:30:05.640
Tom Baker: Dictator Perpetua of America and in charge of policing. What do you think citizens should so as a citizen yourself.
00:30:06.420 --> 00:30:15.390
Tom Baker: What we think in your mind, the type of performance that you would expect from police officers and their ability to use force. How much type of training like
00:30:16.110 --> 00:30:25.950
Tom Baker: Per week per month. Do you think would be a reasonable amount of training to train police officers, the basic digital skills required to produce the level of force, it's being used on the street, if that makes sense.
00:30:27.180 --> 00:30:41.310
Edward Maguire: Yeah. So I think, you know, we can jujitsu is is fast right there's there. There are a lot of different aspects of jujitsu and jujitsu has taken. I come from a particular lineage of jujitsu
00:30:42.510 --> 00:30:56.580
Edward Maguire: Grandmaster Elio Gracie. His son Hickson Gracie their student Pedro sour. So that's my lineage. So I come from a lineage that has a very particular viewpoint about how jujitsu ought to be taught and what it should involve
00:30:57.390 --> 00:31:05.610
Edward Maguire: It's not the only lineage. It's not the only viewpoint. And so much of jujitsu has taken on a very
00:31:07.020 --> 00:31:09.510
Edward Maguire: Sport like orientation, you know,
00:31:10.740 --> 00:31:28.170
Edward Maguire: And so it's gotten really kind of very sophisticated very fancy and very sport focused athletic focused competition focus and i and i i have no concern whatsoever with any of that. I think it's all beautiful and I'm glad to see the art evolving and in those ways
00:31:29.460 --> 00:31:36.570
Edward Maguire: But most of that aspect of the art, which is really starting to take over jujitsu in the United States, anyway.
00:31:38.250 --> 00:32:01.380
Edward Maguire: Most of that is not helpful for law enforcement, the old school Elio Gracie Hickson Gracie lineage health and Gracie lineage of jujitsu, which is just basic self defense. Right. So if we strip the martial art of all its fancy Enos, and we just focus on really basic self defense techniques.
00:32:03.090 --> 00:32:11.940
Edward Maguire: And I think those are the things that can help police officers, the most. And so, you know, if we could get police officers to the point where they're spending.
00:32:12.270 --> 00:32:19.410
Edward Maguire: An hour a week, you know, doing something like that. Like maybe some initial course that's a stripped down version of
00:32:19.620 --> 00:32:31.620
Edward Maguire: Just the most essential elements of Jiu Jitsu stripping away all that stuff that will help you win competitions and look fancy on a YouTube video and just really focus on, you know, how do we preserve your life, how do we stop.
00:32:32.340 --> 00:32:41.190
Edward Maguire: I joke around when I teach the kids. I say when you when you come here and you study Jiu Jitsu with me. I call it my getting punched in the face prevention plan.
00:32:41.490 --> 00:32:49.350
Edward Maguire: Right, so how do we just boil jujitsu down into how are you going to not get punched in the face, how you're not going to get, you know, injured or killed in the line of duty.
00:32:49.650 --> 00:33:03.900
Edward Maguire: And we just strip Jiu Jitsu down to those basic elements, that's where I think we can make it. And then, you know, look, enter in here on Gracie in Torrance, California. I've done this, I think, I don't remember the number, but they've got it down to what 30 or 32 moves or something like that.
00:33:04.050 --> 00:33:16.290
Tom Baker: Yeah, I went and did their last year I went and did their third GSA. The Academy down in Louisville and saw them training the officers. It's really interesting. I think they've done a good job of boiling down to
00:33:16.620 --> 00:33:23.820
Tom Baker: To something that can be. You can teach people have them reinforce it and then have them share and reinforce it as well.
00:33:24.510 --> 00:33:30.390
Edward Maguire: Yeah, so, you know, we, if we strip it down to the basic elements and we don't make it like you're trying to become a black belt.
00:33:30.570 --> 00:33:40.740
Edward Maguire: Or you're trying to become a world champion. This is just, you know, here's a subset of the of the techniques from the art that will help save your life. And, and, more importantly, not more importantly, that helps save your life. But
00:33:41.250 --> 00:33:51.060
Edward Maguire: More commonly, help you control another resisting subject right that's what it really almost always boils down to is
00:33:51.360 --> 00:33:59.490
Edward Maguire: You know, you're trying to arrest somebody and and the person is trying to run away or trying to hurt you or whatever, how do you control that body, how do you control that human being.
00:34:00.090 --> 00:34:05.760
Edward Maguire: And preferably without injuring them without harming them and without sustaining any damage to yourself, you know,
00:34:06.540 --> 00:34:18.060
Edward Maguire: Those techniques. It doesn't take a lot of time. I mean, you can study Jiu Jitsu for, you know, a very short amount of time and and have those basics. You have to have some level of refresher, because it's all going to disappear if you don't
00:34:19.320 --> 00:34:27.120
Edward Maguire: But it really doesn't. I think, take a lot, you know, you don't have to become a master of the art or anything like that. And we know you talked about this.
00:34:28.050 --> 00:34:40.320
Edward Maguire: We know that in times of stress times of fear, you know, these micro body mechanics, they don't work very well. I always think about when I proposed to my wife.
00:34:40.770 --> 00:34:50.430
Edward Maguire: I was Mike my son at the time was a studying magic, you know, magic tricks illusions. And so I was just at the time kind of goofing around with
00:34:51.000 --> 00:35:00.150
Edward Maguire: magic tricks. And so I decided I'm going to propose to my wife, I'm going to do a little magic trick. I'm gonna ring appear out of nowhere. Well, here's what it looked like.
00:35:00.960 --> 00:35:05.010
Edward Maguire: My hands were shaking so bad because I was under stress, the proposed to my wife.
00:35:05.610 --> 00:35:13.410
Edward Maguire: That I literally I fumbled and Bumble defensive trick. Amanda proposal out you know the verbal part but their magic trick fell apart.
00:35:13.890 --> 00:35:22.710
Edward Maguire: If I am so nervous and shaking trying to propose to my wife, nobody's trying to shoot me nobody's trying to punch me or kick me right
00:35:22.980 --> 00:35:39.870
Edward Maguire: And so it's really a lesson. We can't depend on these sort of, you know, these very fancy kinds of techniques that require very fancy kinds of specific you know motor movements, we need to rely on gross motor movements just large body movements. Right.
00:35:39.900 --> 00:35:56.880
Edward Maguire: And so we can jujitsu down into those so that and train them enough so that they're there in your muscle memory and you're able to deploy them almost kind of automatically like you talked about in the situations where you are under distress. That's I think what we need to do for police
00:35:57.750 --> 00:36:06.420
Tom Baker: And if you will. So you're not only your you study policing you you study jujitsu but you're also a romantic as well, which
00:36:08.580 --> 00:36:09.510
Tom Baker: Was a sweet story.
00:36:13.050 --> 00:36:15.900
Tom Baker: So you're talking about. You're not talking about
00:36:16.290 --> 00:36:25.650
Tom Baker: Turning everyone into a black belt. You're talking about some initial training with basic moves that have been proven over over time to be very effective and then a regular sort of
00:36:25.980 --> 00:36:35.490
Tom Baker: reinforcing those skills like I think an hour. Like if it was an hour a week that police officers around the country spent on the map before the before a shift. I think that would have a major
00:36:35.880 --> 00:36:39.810
Tom Baker: Improvement in their skill set. What about can you see that trickling
00:36:40.320 --> 00:36:54.180
Tom Baker: Because I know for me like I'm terrible with my jujitsu I like I go and I trained for a period of time and then I it gets difficult and I don't. And then I it's like I'm reintroducing myself over and over again. But when I'm engaged in the activity. I find that
00:36:56.220 --> 00:37:01.140
Tom Baker: It's a stress reliever. I'm in better shape. I'm I think better I'm
00:37:01.620 --> 00:37:09.540
Tom Baker: I don't, I don't know if this is something that's universal but there's a lot of evidence to suggest that physical fitness and exercise has tons of positive effects.
00:37:09.960 --> 00:37:21.720
Tom Baker: And we know that in policing. We have an obesity problem we have heart disease problem we have a suicide problem mental health problems, drinking problems, drug abuse problems prescription pills. I mean, mostly
00:37:22.890 --> 00:37:31.470
Tom Baker: Do you can you see something like this, having not just an effect on on use of force, but other effects on policing.
00:37:31.980 --> 00:37:36.720
Edward Maguire: Yeah, so, you know, the physical health and wellness effects are amazing.
00:37:37.950 --> 00:37:44.550
Edward Maguire: And you know, it's a I'm going a little stir crazy because we close for three months during the pandemic and
00:37:45.240 --> 00:37:54.750
Edward Maguire: And this is my stress relief. This is my source of physical fitness. So I'm kind of losing my mind a little bit and I know my students are feeling the same way, getting messages from my staff.
00:37:55.530 --> 00:38:03.360
Edward Maguire: I can't take it that I need to get back to jujitsu people get kind of addicted to it. But the other aspect of it that I think is important.
00:38:04.320 --> 00:38:13.260
Edward Maguire: And I really didn't. I knew about this for myself, but I really didn't know about this until I became an instructor, which was about a couple of two and a half years ago.
00:38:14.490 --> 00:38:17.340
Edward Maguire: And that is the the mental health benefits.
00:38:18.600 --> 00:38:31.020
Edward Maguire: And so I've had some students with depression issues and they report that Jiu Jitsu helps them address their depression issues I've had students with post traumatic stress disorder, including from policing.
00:38:31.590 --> 00:38:49.380
Edward Maguire: Who report that when they train the nightmares that they've been having tend to decrease. And so, you know, this is anecdotal and I'm a, I'm a researcher, so I don't pedal too much and anecdotes.
00:38:50.610 --> 00:38:57.900
Edward Maguire: And I'm not familiar with a body of research evidence on the you know the physical and mental health benefits of jujitsu yet but
00:38:58.860 --> 00:39:04.740
Edward Maguire: But you know from my own students, it's it's it's rewarding to hear that they're experiencing.
00:39:05.400 --> 00:39:19.920
Edward Maguire: These benefits and I wonder about the extent to which, if police officers were to engage more in this type of training if they could have this kind of wide spectrum of benefits, something to be studied. Maybe by you.
00:39:20.250 --> 00:39:23.640
Tom Baker: And I've got another thing is I'm behind on another one.
00:39:25.260 --> 00:39:31.650
Tom Baker: I think. And again, this is a we're talking about anecdote, but I think lived experiences important the
00:39:32.670 --> 00:39:39.780
Tom Baker: Especially if there's no if we don't have access to research on. Yes. And this can inform you know that the questions we asked the there's this
00:39:40.380 --> 00:39:48.870
Tom Baker: Feeling that I have when I do jujitsu. I don't know what the, the term that people use but it's being I guess present where you're not thinking about
00:39:49.350 --> 00:39:59.400
Tom Baker: So when I'm when I'm on the mat. I'm not thinking about my job. I'm not thinking about my problems, the things that I did wrong, blah, blah, blah. I'm thinking about not getting choked.
00:40:00.030 --> 00:40:08.820
Tom Baker: Up thinking about doing what I need to do even manipulating my body through time and space to keep to keep this hundred and 60
00:40:09.270 --> 00:40:23.640
Tom Baker: pound person from who's 100 pounds less than me from choking me and making me top. So I think that that I think that might be part of it is just giving, giving officers a space where they can disconnect from there.
00:40:23.730 --> 00:40:33.300
Tom Baker: From everything and making it part of their, their daily duties. I just I can't, I can't see a negative. Maybe they're more injuries, the cost, but
00:40:33.360 --> 00:40:45.690
Tom Baker: I think that they would out that way that that the pause. So you've talked quite a bit. We've talked quite a bit about some of the positives of violence, really. So learning how to utilize violence in
00:40:46.290 --> 00:40:51.420
Tom Baker: With skill can be a way that you can reduce violence. I think that's a fair statement to make.
00:40:51.900 --> 00:40:58.530
Tom Baker: Like these shootings, where I see if this officer had been able to control this personally I don't. It's too soon to make an email when I
00:40:59.160 --> 00:41:11.220
Tom Baker: See the person who got killed in Atlanta. Recently, if the officer had been able to control that person on the ground and Dan gain a dominant position. And as they're trying to build up and get back to the ground. If they've broken down that
00:41:11.520 --> 00:41:14.610
Tom Baker: Broken them down and work together and they've been better trained
00:41:14.880 --> 00:41:20.250
Edward Maguire: Well, let me weigh in on that incident in particular, I have a very unpopular thing to say about that incident.
00:41:21.780 --> 00:41:31.500
Edward Maguire: There is a national movement right now to ban chuckles And I'm not going to criticize the movement in any way. But I just want to weigh in on it. Well, first of all,
00:41:32.100 --> 00:41:39.240
Edward Maguire: As you know, you know, as a jujitsu guy, you know, there's not a chokehold there's multiple kinds of things that we might call it chokehold right so
00:41:40.380 --> 00:41:47.220
Edward Maguire: A lot of the people who are talking about banning chuckles don't actually know what chill codes are they just sound bad. They sound via let's ban them.
00:41:47.760 --> 00:41:56.940
Edward Maguire: Let me make a suggestion to you. There was a moment and that exchange where the officers were fighting. Okay, where one of the officers had his back.
00:41:57.750 --> 00:42:09.480
Edward Maguire: And so we talked about wanting to be in a chokehold okay certain types of choke holds are actually very gentle very peaceful and applied by somebody who knows how to do them properly.
00:42:10.290 --> 00:42:19.140
Edward Maguire: Are not violent. They're very gentle and so at that point in the encounter when one of the officers had the back of the suspect all you had to do.
00:42:19.590 --> 00:42:26.940
Edward Maguire: Was slip in a rear naked choke a vascular neck restraint as the police officers call it and that encounter would have been over right there.
00:42:27.480 --> 00:42:38.820
Edward Maguire: That suspect would not have been injured that shooting never would have happened. Okay. And so it's a controversial point of view, a lot of people disagree with me on this, but
00:42:39.480 --> 00:42:55.500
Edward Maguire: Uh, well, deployed vascular neck restraint by somebody who knows how to do it properly. Who's well trained, maybe certified if we could develop certification procedures would have ended that encounter right there with no damage. No violence, no shooting know looting know riots know any
00:42:57.000 --> 00:43:03.690
Edward Maguire: And so it's a tough. It's a tough position to take right now. And a lot of people will not want to hear that.
00:43:04.800 --> 00:43:15.660
Edward Maguire: But it's just an example of where you know proper ability to be able to control somebody else's movements gently and without injuring them can prevent a lot of violence.
00:43:16.620 --> 00:43:21.510
Tom Baker: And that was the next thing I was gonna, I was gonna ask you about because we do have this
00:43:22.830 --> 00:43:33.690
Tom Baker: Move to, to, to, you know, eliminate choco to you, we, we call it a choke. So, but really it's it's a form of strangulation so you're
00:43:34.530 --> 00:43:45.600
Tom Baker: Blocking blood to and fro, or both at the same time, we don't want. And we don't really know. I don't think fully understand why people lose consciousness. I think there's some, there's some
00:43:46.800 --> 00:44:02.670
Tom Baker: We're not quite sure how it all works. But can you can you maybe just what what's the difference in your, from your understanding what's the difference between choking choking someone and and and or what we call a rear naked choke or a neck restraint.
00:44:03.990 --> 00:44:14.070
Edward Maguire: So when we wrap an arm around somebody's neck. The devil is in the details of exactly where our arm goes around their neck and where the pressure is applied.
00:44:14.760 --> 00:44:28.980
Edward Maguire: If we use the bone in our forearm, almost like imagine the bone in our for our being like a you know a broomstick we wrap around somebody's neck and we pull on their trachea. We can crush the trachea. We can injure the person we could kill the person
00:44:30.810 --> 00:44:40.650
Edward Maguire: And so somebody who, you know, maybe has seen in a UFC or MMA competition, what we call in jujitsu a rear naked choke.
00:44:40.950 --> 00:44:50.190
Edward Maguire: If they don't know what they're doing, they'll often do that. So when I have students tell me on professor. I know the rear naked choke. Okay, show me.
00:44:50.520 --> 00:45:02.010
Edward Maguire: And they come in and they do exactly the wrong thing. Right. They take their forearm, the bone of their form and they squish my trachea now. Fortunately, I have the benefit of that environment of being able to tap out
00:45:03.270 --> 00:45:16.110
Edward Maguire: And so I can relieve that pressure immediate but if you do that kind of pressure on a suspect. And, you know, in a fight. If you're a police officer, you can kill the person isn't going to tap out you can kill them. You can injure them severely crush the trachea.
00:45:17.370 --> 00:45:22.170
Edward Maguire: And so that's a very dangerous move and we has no place in in policing.
00:45:23.580 --> 00:45:33.030
Edward Maguire: But, and it's and there are many people you know who have succumbed to those kinds of injuries over time by officers who are either in properly trained
00:45:33.600 --> 00:45:43.020
Edward Maguire: Or who just didn't know what they were doing, but a really well placed rear naked choke or vascular neck restrain doesn't involve any pressure and all that trachea.
00:45:43.320 --> 00:45:46.800
Edward Maguire: The pressure comes into the side of the neck on the carotid arteries.
00:45:47.400 --> 00:45:56.460
Edward Maguire: And actually one of the instructors that my Academy taught me this. I had never heard it put like this before. But what he teaches his what he's teaching the, what we call the rear naked choke.
00:45:57.060 --> 00:46:09.390
Edward Maguire: When he teaches is if your, if your training partner has to cough or clear their throat You did it wrong heard that before coming up in jujitsu, but it's a beautiful point
00:46:09.540 --> 00:46:20.460
Edward Maguire: It's a good point because and you often see students when they're training this they're coughing or clearing their throat. The reason they're doing that is because some pressure was placed on their trachea.
00:46:21.960 --> 00:46:22.950
Edward Maguire: And so
00:46:23.970 --> 00:46:33.870
Edward Maguire: When we do it right, there's actually like a little hollow in front of your trachea, because you have the elbow, you have the neck and elbow joint there.
00:46:34.890 --> 00:46:42.300
Edward Maguire: And so there is no pressure on the trachea, that the pressure comes in this direction, which is why you know seal here. Some people refer to it as a
00:46:42.750 --> 00:46:55.680
Edward Maguire: Lateral carotid restraint the pressure is lateral it's not coming this way. It's coming this way. And when it's applied properly by somebody who knows how to administer it and, more importantly, it knows when to let go.
00:46:56.880 --> 00:47:04.260
Edward Maguire: Then it's a very gentle move and it ends the fight right there because the person will pass out. And that's the end of it.
00:47:05.550 --> 00:47:17.490
Edward Maguire: And so the the debate right now, unfortunately, is taking both of those moves and placing them under one label the chokehold and seeking to ban all and I understand that.
00:47:18.210 --> 00:47:36.870
Edward Maguire: certainly understand it, but I do hope at some point we can have a more refined conversation about exactly what it is we're proposing to ban, because I do think this move could help prevent violence and police citizen encounters rather than increasing it.
00:47:37.770 --> 00:47:50.640
Tom Baker: Absolutely and and that the being able to talk people when they're in that position, they can still talk they can breathe. It doesn't if it's if it's executed properly, it doesn't obstruct the airway. It just, it's, it's just blood
00:47:52.560 --> 00:47:57.360
Tom Baker: So like I had, I had an experience where I was in a fight with a guy, he had
00:47:58.620 --> 00:48:11.430
Tom Baker: Run and we tackle them and we're scrambling on the ground and I ended up getting his back and got my legs get my hooks in so my legs wrapped around his waist, and he was like moving to his waistband.
00:48:11.820 --> 00:48:19.950
Tom Baker: And it turns out he was, he had drugs in his underwear and he was trying to get rid of the drugs. But in my mind, he may have been going for a weapon and I was concerned about that.
00:48:20.340 --> 00:48:31.560
Tom Baker: And I was able to trap his right arm with my leg with my hooks and I just I threw in a rear naked choke and apply just a little bit of pressure.
00:48:31.950 --> 00:48:45.600
Tom Baker: And his hands. I could feel them come from his waistband. And he was saying. And I kept but I wasn't applying it to put in my unconscious. I was using it as a control technique and then to give him a window to comply.
00:48:46.050 --> 00:49:01.080
Tom Baker: So I gave him instructions and he said something like, you can't choke me and I said well I I'm about to choke you to sleep. If you don't stop resisting and he you know compete complied because he realized, Okay, this guy's so
00:49:02.280 --> 00:49:08.160
Tom Baker: The other option was to not do it and punch him in the face or had a flashlight in my hand.
00:49:08.490 --> 00:49:16.500
Tom Baker: Someone's going for their waistband IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT IN AN ALLEY. And after I chased them from a stolen vehicle, they're gonna get cracked upside the head with a flashlight, you know, like
00:49:16.920 --> 00:49:26.400
Tom Baker: It's so I think people need to think if we remove a force option from police that that is not does not get all of a sudden, be a vacuum or no forces applied.
00:49:26.580 --> 00:49:30.090
Tom Baker: That that team is going to be filled by some other force option and that may very well be.
00:49:30.300 --> 00:49:40.500
Tom Baker: Like we saw in Atlanta. I think you make an excellent point do we would we rather Mr. Brooks have been have been put out and handcuffed or would be rather him. I've been shot.
00:49:41.790 --> 00:49:50.760
Tom Baker: It's, yeah. So I appreciate. I appreciate you making that point. So another another question, I'm sorry, I'm taking up a lot of your time. If you need to split. Just give me a way
00:49:52.770 --> 00:49:59.070
Tom Baker: I've also heard you talk about. So how violent. This is an instance. That's an instance where violence could be productive key talk a little bit about
00:49:59.490 --> 00:50:03.510
Tom Baker: Like I had a friend of mine who I was in the army with the other day on Facebook, say,
00:50:04.410 --> 00:50:10.590
Tom Baker: Second Ranger battalion is just down the road from Chaz. Let's, let's just send them up there and they'll clear that up in a few hours.
00:50:10.890 --> 00:50:20.070
Tom Baker: Or, you know, we have, I have other friends saying, you know, we'll just need to go crackheads and this kind of when they see these protests. He talked a little bit about how
00:50:21.630 --> 00:50:31.980
Tom Baker: You can take how a protest can be transformed into something more when the state utilizes violence as a control mechanism is that, is that something that you're concerned about
00:50:32.880 --> 00:50:34.770
Edward Maguire: Yeah, um, and
00:50:36.150 --> 00:50:47.850
Edward Maguire: You know, one of the things I points I want to make and and and and I've never had a chance to talk about this publicly before. So the only person who only people who have ever heard this, or my students that the academy, but
00:50:48.900 --> 00:51:00.060
Edward Maguire: You know, one of the things masters our talks a lot about he jokes. He says, you know, you know, where I use Jiu Jitsu the most that he's referring to the mindset, not the physical moves, he said, you know, where I use jujitsu the most with my wife.
00:51:01.500 --> 00:51:10.110
Edward Maguire: I'm not going to fight with my wife, you know, I'm going to de escalate. You know, this kind of thing. But, you know, coming from that lineage. There's a mindset of
00:51:11.640 --> 00:51:18.990
Edward Maguire: He calls jujitsu problem solving under duress and what he says is the greatest benefit of jujitsu
00:51:19.470 --> 00:51:26.550
Edward Maguire: Is when you're under a really stressful situations still being able to keep a calm ahead.
00:51:26.910 --> 00:51:33.270
Edward Maguire: And just think about how do I solve this problem. And so he views every part of Jiu Jitsu as a problem to be solved.
00:51:33.480 --> 00:51:40.890
Edward Maguire: You know, there's a man on top of me. He's trying to choke mirror is trying to arm bar me. This is a problem to be solved. So I kind of freak out and just
00:51:41.100 --> 00:51:52.320
Edward Maguire: You know, blast off. I'm going to chill out. I'm going to do the opposite. I'm going to calm down, slow down my thinking and make a really rational decision about how to solve this problem that I'm facing
00:51:52.890 --> 00:52:01.980
Edward Maguire: And boy, what a beautiful mindset to think about applying to every aspect of policing to just slow down your thinking. Calm down.
00:52:02.370 --> 00:52:22.890
Edward Maguire: Make a rational decision about how to solve that problem. Right. And what we often see both in one on one encounters and in crowd police encounters with crowds is we often see very emotional decisions that are based in fear or anger or frustration and these kinds of things. And so
00:52:24.150 --> 00:52:33.690
Edward Maguire: About eight years ago, quite by accident, I might add, I ended up studying the police response to occupy wall street
00:52:34.440 --> 00:52:40.560
Edward Maguire: And the reason I started to do that was because I had a group of PhD students at the time at American University who
00:52:41.460 --> 00:52:49.050
Edward Maguire: I would refer to them as kind of they were like a social justice. Eat type of just happen to have every PhD cohort as a different kind of person.
00:52:49.710 --> 00:52:56.100
Edward Maguire: That was my social justice year, you know, I, they were kind of in a previous generation, they would have been called hippies and
00:52:56.940 --> 00:53:07.560
Edward Maguire: And great great students really care deeply about the world and what they were seeing on TV with with regard to how police in multiple cities were responding to occupy wall street
00:53:07.980 --> 00:53:12.150
Edward Maguire: Was sort of shocking to their collective conscience. And so I had a class with them.
00:53:12.540 --> 00:53:19.620
Edward Maguire: That had nothing to do with Occupy Wall Street, but every week, no matter what we were studying a conversation kept coming back to occupy wall street
00:53:20.070 --> 00:53:28.020
Edward Maguire: And it was a small class. I think we just had five or six students and it's so one day I finally just laughed, and I said, Boy, we just keep talking about this every week. I said, you know,
00:53:28.440 --> 00:53:38.460
Edward Maguire: You folks really seem to be interested in this topic we have an Occupy Wall Street camp right down the road in Washington, DC. Let's just go check it out and go talk to some of these folks. And so we kind of
00:53:38.880 --> 00:53:48.930
Edward Maguire: On the fly just turned it into action research project and so that that sort of humble beginnings turned into
00:53:50.010 --> 00:53:54.600
Edward Maguire: As my wife would say protest policing has taken over our lives because
00:53:56.190 --> 00:54:01.950
Edward Maguire: Nobody really does it in the United States, from the perspective of
00:54:03.180 --> 00:54:16.680
Edward Maguire: Let me back up. And so most of the people who study protest policing in the United States are themselves protesters and so I when I was at the Occupy Wall Street protests in New York City.
00:54:18.030 --> 00:54:35.640
Edward Maguire: New York Times journalist interviewed me and I didn't realize this at the time until the story came out, but I was the only she was writing about professors who are studying the Occupy movement and I was the only one who wasn't in the Occupy movement. I hadn't realized that and so
00:54:36.690 --> 00:54:42.600
Edward Maguire: I study the police, but I also work very closely with the police. They have good relationships with the police.
00:54:43.080 --> 00:54:52.230
Edward Maguire: And so there aren't many people, if any, in the United States who study the police response to protests, who actually work with the police.
00:54:52.770 --> 00:54:59.730
Edward Maguire: A lot of times, the people who study the response to protests are kind of like throwing stones at the police from the outside.
00:55:00.030 --> 00:55:14.700
Edward Maguire: But they're not involved in active partnerships with the police seeking to reform these issues from the inside. So that gave me kind of a particular vantage point that is common in Europe, there's a lot of people like me and Europe, but not so many in the United States.
00:55:15.780 --> 00:55:26.850
Edward Maguire: And so I've been doing a lot of work over the past eight years just studying protests police response to protest from both sides from the police perspective and from the protester perspective.
00:55:28.110 --> 00:55:36.030
Edward Maguire: And what I've found is, I've never picked a research topic in which more people are suspicious of me than this topic.
00:55:36.870 --> 00:55:50.730
Edward Maguire: So the cops think I'm aligned with the protesters the protesters think I'm aligned with the cops and what I'm trying to do, and often on successfully, I might add, is walk this tiny little thin balanced theme in between.
00:55:51.360 --> 00:55:56.370
Edward Maguire: Where I'm just looking for for good solutions to this problem to be solved.
00:55:57.090 --> 00:56:17.940
Edward Maguire: That would benefit both sides and it's really, really hard to win the trust of both communities because in some cities, the relationships between the social justice and protest type communities and the police is just awful. And there's just so much mistrust and anger.
00:56:19.530 --> 00:56:30.300
Edward Maguire: Hostility that it's really, really difficult to try to be the person who bridges that gap and so please let's not send him the military in Seattle.
00:56:31.230 --> 00:56:44.100
Edward Maguire: Let's rely let's rely you know and i can i can benefit here from both a jujitsu approach and from a research approach. You know, we've got 50 years of research that says if we handle those things.
00:56:44.760 --> 00:57:00.030
Edward Maguire: In it with a de escalation mindset and with a gentle manner we can resolve them and that jujitsu mentality is, look, this is a problem to be solved. And let's solve it and in a manner that doesn't create new problems, you know,
00:57:01.230 --> 00:57:13.470
Edward Maguire: So this is, I think, you know, a big part of my own career future will be working with police agencies to help them adopt evidence based solutions for resolving their
00:57:14.550 --> 00:57:18.300
Edward Maguire: Encounters with crowds, that's a big part of policing. It needs a lot of help.
00:57:19.350 --> 00:57:27.600
Tom Baker: I, I couldn't agree more. I saw one of the things I saw that was encouraging and in the chat. I saw some video was a
00:57:28.500 --> 00:57:41.280
Tom Baker: IT administrator from the fire department, and he was walking through the neighborhood and someone was asking questions like, yeah, they, they are fine having me here. I have a good relationship with
00:57:41.790 --> 00:57:57.840
Tom Baker: These folks and I'm just here to see what they need, you know, like he was trying to to say look I you guys pissed. I just want to help make sure you're safe is it okay if I come in here and talk with you guys and slowly building up trust and building a relationship.
00:57:58.860 --> 00:58:11.910
Tom Baker: I thought that was like a really effective way of addressing it and start starting out, we have this incident. I'm expecting in Tulsa this weekend. So we have Juneteenth
00:58:12.660 --> 00:58:21.210
Tom Baker: For people who aren't familiar, it's it's it's it's celebrating the emancipation or I think it's becoming aware of the emancipation, more, more than the actual emancipation date.
00:58:22.500 --> 00:58:35.550
Tom Baker: And in Tulsa are coming up next year will be 100 years since police and citizens and with the cooperation to the government like murdered a bunch of black people by bombed.
00:58:36.300 --> 00:58:50.430
Tom Baker: Community and now we have this rally taking place and we have basically a curfew being put in, put in place and the President saying there's going to be this heavy handed response if
00:58:50.940 --> 00:59:02.790
Tom Baker: Again, your, your dictator perpetual of America, what, what do you think, how should this weekend be managed by the state, in your opinion.
00:59:03.750 --> 00:59:13.800
Edward Maguire: Just as gently as possible. And so, you know, we put out a guidebook on the police response to protest and mass demonstrations. It was just published in
00:59:14.250 --> 00:59:22.890
Edward Maguire: January by the Harry Frank Guggenheim Foundation. And when we put it out. Even though most of the books I publish I I publish them through commercial presses, they have to buy them.
00:59:24.060 --> 00:59:29.160
Edward Maguire: And we don't make any money. By the way, just to make that perfectly clear anybody who doesn't know that but
00:59:29.790 --> 00:59:37.710
Edward Maguire: I purposely had this guidebook for police on handling protests published through the Guggenheim Foundation, thank you to them for doing this.
00:59:38.430 --> 00:59:51.810
Edward Maguire: Because I wanted it to be free. I just wanted it to be freely available to the world. And so they have it on their website, it can be downloaded. But in that book we present a very, very detailed framework for how to respond to these types of events.
00:59:52.890 --> 01:00:06.990
Edward Maguire: And it is involves a lot of different issues. A lot of communication. A lot of negotiation, a lot of de escalation and you know if there is violence or property damage or, you know, unlawful behavior going on as part of these
01:00:07.740 --> 01:00:16.410
Edward Maguire: Responses then then you know we have a framework, a very detailed framework through which police can gear up and
01:00:17.400 --> 01:00:25.680
Edward Maguire: You know there's training that would need to be done to be able to follow some of this but you know you're starting with soft uniforms. Lots of communication. Lots of negotiation.
01:00:26.610 --> 01:00:39.780
Edward Maguire: And as violence starts to increase just a whole framework for how to gear up protect officer health and wellness and safety and just how to de escalate things. A lot of times in these types of events.
01:00:41.400 --> 01:00:52.950
Edward Maguire: The police response tends to to escalate the crowd response. And it's a dynamic and anybody has never been married, you can use this that you can use your hair as a metaphor. Right.
01:00:53.250 --> 01:01:00.240
Edward Maguire: You know, it's almost never one direction, you know, it's almost never you're a helpless victim and your spouse is responsible for all the escalation.
01:01:00.480 --> 01:01:07.410
Edward Maguire: It's a tit for tat thing you both go back and forth and you escalate these things become so much more complex in a crowd setting.
01:01:07.740 --> 01:01:19.890
Edward Maguire: And unfortunately, you know, you could have a crowd of 1000 people and you could have 100 police officers and all of the escalation could come from three crowd members and one police officer doing the wrong thing.
01:01:20.430 --> 01:01:25.050
Edward Maguire: Because, and this is where social psychology comes into it, you know.
01:01:25.590 --> 01:01:35.940
Edward Maguire: You are seen as a police officer as a represent and like, like let's say is one police officer behaving poorly the crowds going to see that one police officer is representing the other 99
01:01:36.390 --> 01:01:43.800
Edward Maguire: Right, let's say there are three CROWD MEMBERS behaving poorly. The police are going to see that those three people is representative of the whole crowd.
01:01:44.010 --> 01:01:56.040
Edward Maguire: So both sides are actually escalating in response to a very small minority of people on the other side. Okay. And so these become really, really touchy situations.
01:01:56.880 --> 01:02:10.410
Edward Maguire: It's virtually never the point are never the case that you know the crowd is always wrong in the police are always right, or the police are always wrong. And the crowd is always right. There's always this tit for tat escalation that happens.
01:02:10.860 --> 01:02:23.700
Edward Maguire: And I think police need to know that need to own it and need to plan for it. They need to build it in processes that really truly understand how crowd violence in the crowd.
01:02:24.480 --> 01:02:34.470
Edward Maguire: Sort of destructive behavior among crowds tends to escalate and to be able to just prevent that police need to approach all of all of their crowd type situations.
01:02:35.160 --> 01:02:44.670
Edward Maguire: From a point of view of preventing violence not escalating it. And we've done a lot of interviews with protesters, including some with these most recent protests.
01:02:44.970 --> 01:02:50.520
Edward Maguire: I was just interviewing a young man from Denver last week, who said he was attending his first protest.
01:02:51.450 --> 01:03:05.340
Edward Maguire: He was just standing there, there was not an order to disperse. And the next thing you know he was, you know, breathing tear gas and having projectiles fired him and the police were backing him and the others into an active intersection that had
01:03:05.880 --> 01:03:17.490
Edward Maguire: Been through it and they were deploying these less lethal munitions in a way that they were hitting vehicles in the intersection and endangering public safety, and he said, you know, he goes, you know, there was no
01:03:18.300 --> 01:03:27.030
Edward Maguire: Looting and no fire setting until the police did that and then everybody was really pissed off and then right after all of that, of course, the
01:03:28.140 --> 01:03:28.680
Edward Maguire: The
01:03:29.700 --> 01:03:41.400
Edward Maguire: The Federal judge in Denver issued a prairie restraining order against the police for how they handled those situations. And so we're seeing those types of things happen a lot
01:03:42.510 --> 01:03:52.050
Edward Maguire: And it's interesting to read the temporary restraining orders, because the federal judges in these different cities in Dallas Seattle Denver Portland.
01:03:52.410 --> 01:04:01.440
Edward Maguire: Those are the ones I've read so far, they're all saying the same thing. They're all you know they're all ordering the police to stop sort of using these munitions.
01:04:02.430 --> 01:04:12.210
Edward Maguire: Arbitrarily or preventively right like there have to be certain conditions under which you can use those tools and those conditions are are not being met, unfortunately.
01:04:13.140 --> 01:04:23.340
Tom Baker: And I, I think you're you make a good point about it. Just that in these crowds. It can be just a handful of people that feel a certain way and then
01:04:23.970 --> 01:04:35.220
Tom Baker: It evokes something you're like I was during the Occupy movement. I was, I was in law enforcement and I was in Phoenix PD at the time, and was working
01:04:35.850 --> 01:04:41.970
Tom Baker: Protest lines. Yeah. So I was go out and work these events on the tactical Response Unit. So I get called from my
01:04:42.450 --> 01:04:55.560
Tom Baker: Job and have to go out and stand in the heat and control these crowds. I remember work, I was working, you know, robbery cases at the time and getting pulled off of that to go stand out there and people are calling you a pig and
01:04:56.280 --> 01:05:15.240
Tom Baker: A few and calling you names and some people are, you know, throwing things at the police and, you know, police officers are human beings. So you get pit you get pissed off. And if there's a window to tear gas some effort that's been calling you names and throwing things at you.
01:05:16.290 --> 01:05:35.640
Tom Baker: As an administrator as a as a political figure as someone in a position of power. It's important that we recognize that once we put armed men and women into a position where human frailty can lead to violence that we don't know it can become very unpredictable.
01:05:35.850 --> 01:05:36.690
Tom Baker: Sort of events.
01:05:37.050 --> 01:05:46.620
Tom Baker: And it doesn't just go the way we might expect. It's also risky. Like, I think of myself as a military veterans. I was in the army.
01:05:47.340 --> 01:05:52.470
Tom Baker: Got out I was a police officer. I left policing very much as a result of my
01:05:53.160 --> 01:06:04.260
Tom Baker: Experiences during those those protests. So being on those lines dealing with America social problems and then being in these very dynamic.
01:06:04.620 --> 01:06:26.250
Tom Baker: Political settings evoked a political change in me that led me out of policing and when you look back in other periods of and other societies. When you use your the military police to put down civil unrest, it can backfire in a number of ways. And one of those ways is you may lose
01:06:27.750 --> 01:06:41.430
Tom Baker: I don't think you're going to lose the police in this environment, but the mill. You know when you're when we're using these these these human beings. We don't know how this is going to, we don't know the long term implications, how this is going to affect our culture.
01:06:43.050 --> 01:06:51.870
Tom Baker: I'm really worried about what's what's been happening. I've kept you here a long time, I just want to turn it over to you one more time and leave you with a space to maybe talk about
01:06:52.590 --> 01:07:02.280
Tom Baker: Where we are right now and what sort of like for people who don't know a lot about policing. They don't know a lot about police use of force. Can you tell them sort of what
01:07:02.940 --> 01:07:09.990
Tom Baker: what your thoughts are right now and what you would maybe like to see happen what your concerns are. I don't know, just your final thoughts on this topic.
01:07:11.190 --> 01:07:22.830
Edward Maguire: Yeah, I mean I think right now we have, you know, the Black Lives Matter movement is a view, there is being sort of you know something akin to a stock market correction here.
01:07:23.190 --> 01:07:31.320
Edward Maguire: Where you know we have a sense of collective trauma and the African American community and and other minority communities in the United States right now.
01:07:32.670 --> 01:07:39.720
Edward Maguire: Where there is evidence that these communities are treated disproportionately and the evidence, by the way, is overwhelming.
01:07:40.170 --> 01:07:48.510
Edward Maguire: Right. I mean, the evidence is absolutely overwhelming that race and ethnicity matter in dealing with the police.
01:07:49.110 --> 01:08:00.150
Edward Maguire: All else held constant African Americans are absolutely arrested searched and stopped at higher rates than than than other races, you know and and so there are and not
01:08:00.510 --> 01:08:13.380
Edward Maguire: That evidence also exists at other points in the criminal justice process and in the court process and sentencing and imprisonment in jail terms of all of these kinds of things we see massive evidence of
01:08:14.040 --> 01:08:20.670
Edward Maguire: Disparities that are due to race and ethnicity and so that you know the research evidence on this is not clear.
01:08:21.690 --> 01:08:27.750
Edward Maguire: You know, the folks who are protesting are protesting based on a collective feeling that they're being treated unfairly
01:08:28.770 --> 01:08:35.970
Edward Maguire: And that's not to say that they're you know that in every instance, they're treated unfairly, but the research evidence on this is really clear there is
01:08:36.360 --> 01:08:46.230
Edward Maguire: There are disparities in the criminal justice process at every point in the process. And those need to be addressed. And so these protests are raising valid points.
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Edward Maguire: I I empathize with with what the protesters are experiencing and the collective trauma that they're feeling the very real pain that they're experiencing.
01:08:59.190 --> 01:09:09.060
Edward Maguire: And my only caution as a researcher who studies the police would be in our zeal to make reforms, let's make sure we make the right reforms.
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Edward Maguire: I know that the defund the police movement has a lot of different strands, all the way from outright abolition of police to, you know, redirecting funding for police to other other portions of the community. Other types of helping agencies.
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Edward Maguire: And so I hope that we can think very clearly.
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Edward Maguire: I hope that we can make good solid evidence based decisions about how to reform the police, how to transform the police, whatever the right terminology is
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Edward Maguire: Whatever decisions we make. I just hope we make them calmly. I hope we make them rationally and I hope we make them based on research evidence and especially I hope we just think through
01:09:58.170 --> 01:10:13.740
Edward Maguire: The notion of unintended consequences. I think there's a possibility here that we could very quickly, very passionately put in place some reforms that actually make things worse. And I'm just hoping we don't do that.
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Tom Baker: I think that's, that's a great note to end on. I mean, we right we all recognize that our brothers and sisters, people who are members of our community are suffering and are in pain, and we need to take steps to
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Tom Baker: To alleviate that pain and suffering and at the same time, we need to do it in a way that's productive and doesn't make things worse. I really want to thank you for your time.
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Tom Baker: Your insights are very valuable. I'm going to put a link if you could send me the book that you said was that could you send me a link to that.
01:10:43.590 --> 01:10:55.860
Tom Baker: That way anyone who's listening to this can can read through that. I'll also put your, your bio and your info up there. And again, thank you so much. I hope maybe down the road, I can have another conversation with you and check
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Tom Baker: Anytime. Okay, thank you so much. I'm going to go ahead
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Edward Maguire: And
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Tom Baker: Say goodbye. Thanks.