On this episode, Professor Thaddeus Johnson and I discuss his path in and out of policing, his research, the George Floyd Murder, Codiv-19, police management, and the future of U.S. policing. Thaddeus Johnson is a Criminal Justice and Criminology professor at Georgia State University in Atlanta. Following his career in law enforcement, Thaddeus received a bachelor’s and Master’s degree in Criminal Justice at the University of Tennessee-Chattanooga, then a PhD at Georgia State University.
Tom Baker has been a PhD student in UMSL's Criminology and Criminal Justice program since 2017. Tom received his BA in Political Science from Arizona State University and worked as a police officer for approximately nine years. His research interests include police culture, use of force, and qualitative research methods. https://www.umsl.edu/ccj/Graduate%20Students/baker.html
On this episode, Professor Thaddeus Johnson and I discuss his path in and out of policing, his research, the George Floyd Murder, Codiv-19, police management, and the future of U.S. policing. Thaddeus Johnson is a Criminal Justice and Criminology professor at Georgia State University in Atlanta. Following his career in law enforcement, Thaddeus received a bachelor’s and Master’s degree in Criminal Justice at the University of Tennessee-Chattanooga, then a PhD at Georgia State University.
Tom Baker has been a PhD student in UMSL's Criminology and Criminal Justice program since 2017. Tom received his BA in Political Science from Arizona State University and worked as a police officer for approximately nine years. His research interests include police culture, use of force, and qualitative research methods. https://www.umsl.edu/ccj/Graduate%20Students/baker.html
1
00:00:00.840 --> 00:00:03.870
Tom Baker: Hey, thanks. Thanks again for for joining me.
2
00:00:05.130 --> 00:00:11.040
Tom Baker: I just wanted to get started by just letting everyone get to know you a little bit, who you are. Can you tell us, like, where did you grow up.
3
00:00:12.360 --> 00:00:13.440
Thad: I grew up in Memphis, Tennessee.
4
00:00:14.849 --> 00:00:23.430
Thad: I've lived all over the US some time in Chattanooga, Tennessee. This sometimes Jamaican now here in Atlanta, Georgia. So yeah, okay, from Memphis.
5
00:00:24.210 --> 00:00:28.080
Tom Baker: Grew up in. I grew up in Memphis, and then what you were in policing.
6
00:00:28.230 --> 00:00:32.040
Thad: What yeah I worked in policing for 10 years down there.
7
00:00:33.180 --> 00:00:36.810
Thad: There was about 10 years ago. So I'm telling my age, right. So, yeah.
8
00:00:38.220 --> 00:00:46.200
Tom Baker: And how did you come like what, what was your, sort of, because we all have like a path to policing, I sort of had a path to police. What was your path to becoming a police officer.
9
00:00:46.620 --> 00:00:47.910
Thad: was funny. It was a
10
00:00:50.100 --> 00:00:58.050
Thad: serendipitous a source because I was in college, not necessarily take care of my business 2223 either get a job.
11
00:00:58.350 --> 00:01:01.320
Thad: At a just somehow please and came across the map. I was doing
12
00:01:01.920 --> 00:01:13.650
Thad: Security at the university, I was at Campus Police and grew from there. It kind of sparked my interest got some training came back home to Memphis and a burn down there and methods. And so, so
13
00:01:14.430 --> 00:01:16.590
Tom Baker: Did you know anywhere. Did you have any family members, you
14
00:01:16.590 --> 00:01:23.880
Thad: Know, I was not one of those tablets were like, we don't really, you know, we don't we don't do the police thing. I'm not sure if I'm the only person to be a police officer, but oh
15
00:01:24.420 --> 00:01:34.440
Thad: I have some people do security, things like that, but nobody's done goes very nicely done policing. So that's not a family tradition metal legacy officer at all. So,
16
00:01:34.500 --> 00:01:37.680
Tom Baker: Okay, so it's not like the not the family business or anything like that.
17
00:01:38.070 --> 00:01:40.470
Thad: Like they just know those things that I got into it and I
18
00:01:40.860 --> 00:01:44.670
Thad: I asked to spend a little bit like it was all things I really enjoy
19
00:01:46.440 --> 00:01:50.010
Thad: That type of it up one at a point that's why the guy I'm going after the now.
20
00:01:51.030 --> 00:02:00.540
Thad: That was a great experience. Yeah. I mean, it was a long time was my prime, you know, I mean, as a young guy. So yeah, I just, I really enjoyed it was a help helping people which
21
00:02:01.560 --> 00:02:08.160
Thad: Can be quite frustrating, particularly the policing where you're where you grew up at it a little bit more emotionally attached
22
00:02:09.330 --> 00:02:13.500
Thad: But those things make you stronger and it really helped me today. So
23
00:02:14.490 --> 00:02:20.310
Tom Baker: WHAT DID YOU DO SO WHEN YOU WERE YOU SAID YOU Ron for about 10 years. Can you tell us, like, what did you do in the police department.
24
00:02:20.550 --> 00:02:28.200
Thad: Yeah, so sorry to patrol the I did a little this vision for a little bit, then that's what I do and training. I spent the last
25
00:02:28.650 --> 00:02:38.520
Thad: Probably three or four years just doing one training. So with. It was a firearms training, whether it was for us, whether we doing, why even trained certified offices in a bicycle.
26
00:02:38.880 --> 00:02:39.690
Tom Baker: So, okay.
27
00:02:39.810 --> 00:02:47.640
Thad: Yeah, so you can, things like that. Did a lot of training part of it just really worked, special events, but I did a lot of training with. It was a basic or what it was.
28
00:02:49.260 --> 00:03:02.610
Tom Baker: And then how did you, you said you you're doing it for about 10 years and then you got tired of it. Can you tell us, sort of, it's not too personal like what, what, what was that practice. I know I had a long project meetings like yours to make my way out, it was
29
00:03:03.300 --> 00:03:06.810
Tom Baker: To give up on because I was on for about almost 10 years myself and it was
30
00:03:06.900 --> 00:03:07.110
Thad: A
31
00:03:07.260 --> 00:03:11.160
Tom Baker: There was a part of my identity, I had this, you know, decent income and
32
00:03:11.250 --> 00:03:14.190
Tom Baker: Yes, it's a big step to take to leave this
33
00:03:14.460 --> 00:03:19.230
Tom Baker: Profession after 10 years what He tells what what took you out of what led you out of policing.
34
00:03:19.710 --> 00:03:26.910
Thad: Well, I had gotten to a point to even the job was just as far as being able to move up. I was kind of place where I was stuck.
35
00:03:27.300 --> 00:03:33.210
Thad: I guess probably going to be stuck in the business for another five years or so, middle management. And so that was a little frustrating.
36
00:03:33.660 --> 00:03:44.580
Thad: But also just the the job like the emphasis like like 65% for that city. So if I was going to people. They look just like me. And so the contacts that you have with those people that look like
37
00:03:45.180 --> 00:03:56.400
Thad: And you understand that they're committed these crimes, not because they're bad people, but they either bad circumstances made a dumb mistake right with generally good people. And so knowing that as an officer.
38
00:03:57.060 --> 00:04:04.050
Thad: What I was doing to that path, even though I was doing my job and society needs that job, but for me it wasn't the change that I wanted
39
00:04:04.680 --> 00:04:14.010
Thad: To affect I wouldn't if I was actually part of the problem, or if I was just maybe not pop solution for the problem, right. So I just didn't feel like I was contributing away, they're
40
00:04:14.640 --> 00:04:28.020
Thad: Wanting to contribute. I met my wife around that time she's a big dreamer. Right. And so she came down from Brooklyn and these kind of started bouncing around, you know, and following up passions and let us to have the dots Warcraft. Somehow I never would have
41
00:04:28.050 --> 00:04:31.290
Thad: Thought but but yeah so we ended up in 10 years later.
42
00:04:32.460 --> 00:04:34.650
Thad: The theme of the station probably will week so yeah
43
00:04:35.310 --> 00:04:44.190
Tom Baker: I know my wife was a big part of my because I had wanted to do it. And I just couldn't you know couldn't do it, and then seeing her. She went and got a PhD first
44
00:04:44.400 --> 00:04:44.970
Thad: Really
45
00:04:45.300 --> 00:04:54.510
Tom Baker: And then, yeah, and she did it when she was on while she was like 40 and so seeing like this mother to the working woman who's like, you know,
46
00:04:55.620 --> 00:04:58.260
Tom Baker: I met her. She worked in a poster shop, you know, not
47
00:04:58.620 --> 00:04:59.520
Tom Baker: Not, I mean, so
48
00:05:00.330 --> 00:05:05.460
Tom Baker: She worked her way and then went and got a PhD and I was like, well, if she can do that and
49
00:05:05.490 --> 00:05:06.090
Thad: Yes.
50
00:05:06.120 --> 00:05:06.780
Tom Baker: You know, like
51
00:05:06.960 --> 00:05:13.380
Tom Baker: It was really an inspiration of so you kind of had a similar thing where you met you met this woman, and you were excited inspired by her
52
00:05:13.770 --> 00:05:18.720
Thad: Yeah, yeah. You know, it's easy to kind of jump out and make a change and you're not by yourself, you know i mean is a
53
00:05:19.050 --> 00:05:24.690
Thad: Little bit scary. It was a single person that you just you know it's it's good for somebody has your back and you all just wanted to do something that's
54
00:05:24.960 --> 00:05:31.980
Thad: Differently. Not sure what it is, but you know they can travel this path to get there and it's not easy. We have a part of doing it and had funded by yourself. I'll tell you that.
55
00:05:32.610 --> 00:05:44.340
Tom Baker: What was it like I know for me, it's been like, it hasn't been easy. All the time being, like, my age, and everyone's 25 graduations and and
56
00:05:45.480 --> 00:05:54.600
Tom Baker: I'm going. You go from being this person who has some authority and you have this like identity in this career to being a grad student. What was that like for you with it.
57
00:05:55.350 --> 00:06:02.250
Thad: I really had a master's program at the University of Tennessee and chatting to the great people that I respected and they had
58
00:06:02.610 --> 00:06:10.290
Thad: A heart for justice and they knew they were doing. They were chart people when they're coming to Georgia State and just being surrounded by these all stars and people that really have a
59
00:06:10.620 --> 00:06:18.690
Thad: Powerful just, it's not just about the research out what their research means in that size supposed to impact the benefit society. And so it makes it easy to
60
00:06:19.050 --> 00:06:23.820
Thad: Pick who are successful that you broke respected in the space, but you will see that these are people who have
61
00:06:24.240 --> 00:06:28.740
Thad: hearts of gold will help our society and it makes you buy into it and know that you trust.
62
00:06:29.130 --> 00:06:33.300
Thad: You build this trust and you love to be vulnerable and kind of having that background.
63
00:06:33.630 --> 00:06:43.350
Thad: And they'll play sports and and policing those a quasi military type of style things I'm used to rank and file understanding organizational pecking order that know you have to tell your goal to get
64
00:06:43.740 --> 00:06:52.350
Thad: Certain jobs done and so everybody's on the same page. And I'm just going to both the masters at the docks will every acted
65
00:06:53.250 --> 00:07:03.570
Thad: Like my opinions. My thoughts, my dreams my aspirations and you can see that you get those papers back. What are their read on it. There it is. Love because you know the best it in and the work that you're doing it.
66
00:07:05.340 --> 00:07:11.130
Thad: I didn't, I didn't find it really hard. I think maybe as an undergrad at the undergraduate Jamaica moves to make up
67
00:07:12.510 --> 00:07:17.130
Thad: Rules to live that down and I did my bachelor's degree online down in Jamaica.
68
00:07:18.750 --> 00:07:23.760
Thad: That was interesting. But I didn't have to be the old guy in the classroom. So I made the transition
69
00:07:23.970 --> 00:07:26.280
Thad: A little bit easier. So I hadn't really had to deal with that.
70
00:07:27.720 --> 00:07:31.530
Tom Baker: Okay, and you said sports. What sport. What sport.
71
00:07:31.680 --> 00:07:34.950
Thad: Is the book on time. Like last basketball, you can at least have
72
00:07:35.130 --> 00:07:36.330
Thad: A spa, those types of things.
73
00:07:36.570 --> 00:07:41.370
Thad: Okay, you said that that uh the code to get used to that the person who's in charge, and you can
74
00:07:41.850 --> 00:07:46.950
Thad: Be a part of a team and and knowing that you can take the last shot every time you got to go see the screen you to go
75
00:07:47.280 --> 00:07:58.140
Thad: Box out you they go said Eagle enroll. So the first school just understanding your role in the bigger scheme of things, and it makes it easier for me that structure really helps me much.
76
00:07:59.160 --> 00:08:10.710
Tom Baker: And what are you working on right now. So you made this transition from from policing academia, you got your PhD, you've got a tenure track gig. Now you you kicked out some great research, what are you working on right now.
77
00:08:11.280 --> 00:08:19.950
Thad: So right now, today, I'm working on a series of papers, looking at the impact of college education or higher education policies or whether it's a policy itself.
78
00:08:20.250 --> 00:08:29.550
Thad: Whether this, the amount of college aid officers the partner level and at the individual level wants to connect the use of force, whether they are more or less likely to
79
00:08:30.840 --> 00:08:37.560
Thad: Pull the trigger. But also, I'm well that's likely to be involved in my dress and also been involved in physical altercation with students.
80
00:08:38.130 --> 00:08:49.860
Thad: I just finished a piece of misconduct. I'm not really find a lot of us and ethical effects with that but that really is kind of goes to show how deep that culture Ron's that the subculture minds and that
81
00:08:50.220 --> 00:08:55.860
Thad: If you really want to impact change. You don't have to focus on more than just one one part of the tree, take a
82
00:08:56.160 --> 00:09:03.450
Thad: A a full throated commitment and even how to leadership to your goals, your mission. So you're really pointed out in the last papers. Look at that.
83
00:09:04.350 --> 00:09:09.240
Thad: The impact of what education policy department of outcomes as far as violent crime and if
84
00:09:10.050 --> 00:09:26.370
Thad: Lisa EFFECTIVENESS OF IT IMPACTS THE POLICE education works to have their arrest rate their clearance rate their effectiveness and arrest if they could reduce crime, just kind of plan around those areas right now, along with probably a host of other I'll be doing some nice, yeah.
85
00:09:27.630 --> 00:09:35.640
Tom Baker: Okay. And I actually, I spotlighted some of your research on the very first episode of this podcast with one of my mentors Rick Rosenfeld
86
00:09:35.700 --> 00:09:36.720
Tom Baker: Yes.
87
00:09:36.780 --> 00:09:43.350
Tom Baker: Yeah, so I i I'm sorry I I let him come on here and explain the work when you're, you're the driving force behind that research.
88
00:09:43.620 --> 00:09:46.170
Thad: But he's gonna he's my mentor to me is
89
00:09:47.610 --> 00:09:52.980
Thad: The, the first author, the author. He is the best person to talk about, you know, I mean, so, yeah.
90
00:09:53.130 --> 00:09:53.550
Thad: Yeah.
91
00:09:53.880 --> 00:10:06.150
Tom Baker: And I was amazed with him is just his nuanced understanding of violence in the history of violence and its role in society and how you know it's managed to. It's incredible. So that's kind of like our
92
00:10:06.480 --> 00:10:15.270
Tom Baker: Our connection. And the reason I had wanted initially I reached out to you because I wanted to talk to you about some things I saw happening with the covert response.
93
00:10:15.420 --> 00:10:15.960
Thad: Yes, and
94
00:10:15.990 --> 00:10:34.050
Tom Baker: The way that I'd seen this sort of trend online with officers, but history has a way of thrusting things on us that, and I mean it would be, I mean, I met to talk to you before, if it was okay to mention to talk about this and I just have to ask for your, sort of like
95
00:10:35.250 --> 00:10:45.360
Tom Baker: I was horrified. I think everyone any anyone should be horrified by what we saw in Minneapolis. Do you have an initial. What was your initial sort of reaction to that.
96
00:10:46.170 --> 00:10:51.960
Thad: I will say this one was different it a little bit different, right, because I'm the first
97
00:10:52.830 --> 00:10:56.520
Thad: I like to consider myself stand in the gap between, you know, these minority communities and
98
00:10:57.060 --> 00:11:09.780
Thad: And police officer. I've had the experience of both. I walked in both Jews and so I know how almost impossible for decent job can be. And so I always try to give them the benefit of the doubt because I understand the difficulties of it. However,
99
00:11:11.490 --> 00:11:20.400
Thad: There was no way to talk around that of that wasn't about black, white, it wasn't about a police officer and a citizen that was
100
00:11:20.880 --> 00:11:30.510
Thad: About a person who had this regard for the other person spike and a person shouldn't have the badge and it really hit home with the racial aspect of it.
101
00:11:31.020 --> 00:11:39.300
Thad: Possibly. Think about this coldest season the disparities and accounts that you had a thing with a mod down here in Georgia. So just a lot of things I particularly black man.
102
00:11:40.560 --> 00:11:49.920
Thad: It just really hit a little bit differently this time and Amelia saw that I was like yeah they got needs to be fired. There was no excuse for that.
103
00:11:53.040 --> 00:11:59.700
Thad: There's a black mark on all of these. Think about, you know, we probably have what 25 million contacts with citizens, that's probably conservative every year.
104
00:12:00.150 --> 00:12:05.760
Thad: And man, the overwhelming majority go, we'll go. We'll have read off let out there, one guy who
105
00:12:06.270 --> 00:12:16.410
Thad: Puts a mark on it and that reduces it undermines legitimacy and so it was bigger than just this one event. It's about just structure of our society. It's just in our government
106
00:12:17.010 --> 00:12:27.120
Thad: The trust that everybody's created equally. So it was much bigger than that moment that was a flashpoint and just really highlight it was a microcosm, everything else is going on in our society.
107
00:12:28.290 --> 00:12:44.130
Tom Baker: Can you talk. Can you talk a little bit about what happens like you know you're an expert on policing, you, you, you understand crime you studied crime. What is, what does it do to a society when huge segments of the population.
108
00:12:45.180 --> 00:12:50.580
Tom Baker: Their trust in the state and the trust and the police has diminished. What are some of the things that can happen as a result of that.
109
00:12:51.120 --> 00:12:57.210
Thad: I mean, you can. I mean, you can have increased the balance where we the victimization. Well, we don't trust the police.
110
00:12:57.510 --> 00:13:04.770
Thad: Monstrous you can be go to them because that's what research that shows that you know when it comes to outcomes and clearance rates, it comes to outcomes in cases where a sexual assaults when I do that.
111
00:13:05.340 --> 00:13:15.030
Thad: That minorities, another non white tend to get the short end of the stick. And so with all that and the history, but we can't trust our police officers to keep us safe.
112
00:13:15.450 --> 00:13:23.970
Thad: What do we have to turn to. And when you have that feeling the emotion that comes to the headship have these events we have right now I'm by no way condoning it but
113
00:13:24.510 --> 00:13:43.320
Thad: What other reports that people feel that they have. Right. And so it's just a, it's a, it's a tinderbox and this model is going to happen. I mean, the frustrations are ready to be economy to the pandemic. This is really just a perfect storm to use a lack of better terms, but
114
00:13:44.670 --> 00:13:53.160
Thad: It really damages our society. It takes us back to before the 1960s. I was talking to my father grew up in Memphis, and when the time and he was almost like man this is like
115
00:13:53.640 --> 00:14:02.850
Thad: Aren't all over again. And so when you take that and look at those historical images and what decent has has meant a certain subsets of society.
116
00:14:03.900 --> 00:14:09.150
Thad: At the damage that we have no trust, No faith, people Citizen Engagement will stop. Well we posted the polls and vote.
117
00:14:09.600 --> 00:14:14.040
Thad: If we don't feel that was matters. Why would you go to the polls and vote for government that we represent.
118
00:14:14.400 --> 00:14:18.720
Thad: And we know how that can try out if if everyone's never presented with their vote.
119
00:14:19.050 --> 00:14:30.930
Thad: And these are the type of thing people draw from the government withdraw from society. It's not what we want people to be that verse and be together, but so draws us increases the subconscious. They can breed crime that can greet
120
00:14:32.190 --> 00:14:34.530
Thad: as passionate as acrimonious between police in the public
121
00:14:35.940 --> 00:14:36.750
Thad: Yes, not a good thing.
122
00:14:37.200 --> 00:14:39.120
Tom Baker: But it undermines
123
00:14:39.240 --> 00:14:43.710
Tom Baker: Safety for for everybody and i i know
124
00:14:45.150 --> 00:14:54.840
Tom Baker: Like just trust. It has like it's not just this on a big macro level. It's like individual people. And there are people who died because
125
00:14:55.410 --> 00:15:00.450
Tom Baker: People didn't feel trapped. They didn't trust the police. They took it into the matter into their own hands or they didn't
126
00:15:00.780 --> 00:15:08.130
Tom Baker: Cooperate. An investigation I when I was an officer. I got involved in, and I was an officer involved shooting and the victim that I was
127
00:15:08.640 --> 00:15:22.350
Tom Baker: Defending I was was positioned between the suspect and the victim of domestic violence call and I ended up having to shoot the suspect, and one of the major reasons was to defend the victim, BUT THE VICTIM WAS AN UNDOCUMENTED
128
00:15:23.490 --> 00:15:41.880
Tom Baker: Immigrant to the United States and they fled. So they ran away and I was during the investigation. The, the witness wasn't present because they were scared that Joe Arpaio was going to deport them if they stuck around and talk to the police. So when you create distrust.
129
00:15:42.000 --> 00:15:47.430
Tom Baker: Yes, government, and not only affects victims, but officers themselves.
130
00:15:47.820 --> 00:15:54.900
Tom Baker: THEIR SAFETY SECURITY their ability to do an investigation no criminal investigation works without public trust.
131
00:15:54.990 --> 00:16:00.300
Thad: As exactly as that be like I'm it's funny that I'm working on a piece right now. And what I'm finding is that
132
00:16:01.110 --> 00:16:06.990
Thad: Departments can effect. They can affect our rates without the rest
133
00:16:07.590 --> 00:16:15.540
Thad: Right, and you're talking about when you build a community engagement. We're like, you know, now we trust you, that we can tell you what this bad guy is because you're part of the community.
134
00:16:15.810 --> 00:16:21.870
Thad: We know that you're going to go out there, you're going to protect our keep it Anonymous. Anonymous. Sorry. And you also want to make sure
135
00:16:22.350 --> 00:16:35.550
Thad: That this person doesn't come back for retribution a trust you. Else, things are needed, you have the citizen undocumented workers, you have the immigrants, you have the CDs were like report, the crabs to us. We don't care about your status.
136
00:16:36.030 --> 00:16:45.840
Thad: About your safety and those type of things I really, really, really build the trust and those are some of the stories that I wish but really out there to kind of at least provide balance of things that you see right now.
137
00:16:46.260 --> 00:17:03.210
Tom Baker: That I know my my agency that I worked for. We really are administrators. They understood that, that the importance of that. So they made a concerted effort to send officers into the community to say, hey, we don't care what your status is and we made it intentionally we didn't
138
00:17:04.740 --> 00:17:21.210
Tom Baker: Communicate and get try to get them to port it because we that we valued that that public trust and knew that that public trust was more valuable than some short term sort of arrest and I definitely see the similarities similarities here. You're where you're in Atlanta right now.
139
00:17:22.710 --> 00:17:23.010
Thad: Yes.
140
00:17:23.280 --> 00:17:26.430
Tom Baker: What what's happening, what is what's happening there right now.
141
00:17:27.180 --> 00:17:34.350
Thad: So right now it's pretty calm. I don't have any helicopters or anything, but this weekend right downtown and my god this weekend was just
142
00:17:35.190 --> 00:17:49.020
Thad: It was it was something to see watching on the news and just seeing the people we walked up and down the street and just see the windows and all these things and just a, you can tell us a lot of hurt and pain coming down through those through those streets and
143
00:17:50.430 --> 00:17:58.320
Thad: It's just fine. This is one of those civil rights numbers in the US. And so for this to take place down here. We've seen a couple of
144
00:17:59.100 --> 00:18:11.490
Thad: Rallies directions. Again, this is 2016 and so there's been a couple of marches Black Lives Matters movements and marches down here, and none of them look like this. And it just really goes to tell you that a fit for our
145
00:18:13.500 --> 00:18:22.470
Thad: People have no way to turn. I think we have to get something done. Now you can't say I'm going to get it. I'm not going to die because this is the future of our nation depends on this.
146
00:18:24.480 --> 00:18:25.980
Thad: You can't get this wrong and
147
00:18:27.240 --> 00:18:33.480
Thad: It has a response like that a city that's not known for out and protest and I know that has to be stopped or something.
148
00:18:34.920 --> 00:18:35.220
Tom Baker: With
149
00:18:36.750 --> 00:18:45.030
Tom Baker: I mean, these, these protests. I worked. I worked on more on the like the tactical responses like the the riot squad and
150
00:18:45.060 --> 00:18:49.530
Tom Baker: Yeah, old agency during the Occupy protests and I remember
151
00:18:50.460 --> 00:19:05.370
Tom Baker: very distinctly recognizing that the protesters were trying to like educate the public, they were trying to convey a message to the public. Yeah. And one of the thing. So you see this sort of like the quote unquote peaceful protest versus the quote unquote riots like
152
00:19:06.450 --> 00:19:11.250
Tom Baker: But I'm not, I'm not trying to make any kind of distinction when I'm when I'm thinking about is that there's been
153
00:19:11.730 --> 00:19:23.880
Tom Baker: An effort. There's been destruction of property in an effort to convey a message, as far as I'm concerned. And I'm interested in the in Atlanta, they targeted I noticed that they targeted CNN.
154
00:19:25.200 --> 00:19:26.610
Thad: And I'm not sure I
155
00:19:27.900 --> 00:19:32.340
Thad: I'm not sure why. I just think that they represent it.
156
00:19:33.570 --> 00:19:43.710
Thad: Is a major feature in Atlanta is one of the things that Atlanta and the government in the city that this church down here as thinking that they just represent it. Everything about the
157
00:19:44.910 --> 00:19:56.010
Thad: Is represented just everything about the, the government everything about the media everything about just all those things. I think there's just in that moment. At that time there was a one way, you know, we can make a message.
158
00:19:56.040 --> 00:20:04.830
Thad: No, this is the lash out last night. People are so don't condone it, but I don't condemn it because people are predisposed to do
159
00:20:05.220 --> 00:20:14.700
Tom Baker: That seems it seems to me like a logical response given the totality of the circumstances and desperation that the system has currently created for a huge segment of the population.
160
00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:23.250
Tom Baker: It's I'm not surprised at all. And it seems like a rep. I don't want to say it's like a rational, but it seems like it's logical that this would happen.
161
00:20:23.850 --> 00:20:34.740
Tom Baker: And people are behaving the way we know people are going to behave when you put them under pressure. So I don't blame them. I don't blame people either I I would imagine if my life circumstances were different, that I can very easily see myself doing the same thing.
162
00:20:35.070 --> 00:20:50.580
Thad: That's, that's, that's true, that's true, that's absolutely true. And he walked in those shoes at least try to empathize with people I get a full understanding of it and MATTER OF FACT YOU HAD YOU HAD TO ATLANTA POLICE OFFICERS a during the protest was it last night or Saturday night.
163
00:20:51.930 --> 00:21:01.380
Thad: Taste to college students in a vehicle out of the curfew was fast and the chief in the video. They fired him. The two offices right there on a Friday by 20 year veterans.
164
00:21:01.710 --> 00:21:09.810
Thad: And they found it because they said it was the use of force and they just shown as zero tolerance for this type of behavior. I think that's what's going to
165
00:21:10.950 --> 00:21:20.910
Thad: Have to happen for the public to trust that we will produce ourselves and we have to show a willingness to do is swiftly and fasting and and do it with the certain amount of
166
00:21:22.410 --> 00:21:23.130
Thad: I'm sorry that
167
00:21:23.850 --> 00:21:24.090
Tom Baker: You're
168
00:21:24.690 --> 00:21:27.030
Thad: Going to talk. All right, I'm all NASA technology.
169
00:21:28.140 --> 00:21:30.210
Tom Baker: It's great. Yeah. So it's just
170
00:21:30.330 --> 00:21:34.830
Thad: It's just all those things that he's talking about that, that the cherish there and talk about all those things as needed to show people the eight
171
00:21:35.040 --> 00:21:46.500
Thad: We can trust you all that you are an extension of the community, but until these things happen and listen police officers. They might just have one bad moment 1111 misjudgment
172
00:21:47.580 --> 00:21:55.260
Thad: And is it fair. I'm not sure, or not. But in this time and place. We can't afford to lose a public service anymore. Right.
173
00:21:55.650 --> 00:21:58.530
Tom Baker: I remember like the city. I worked in was
174
00:22:00.540 --> 00:22:08.490
Tom Baker: Like the area. I worked in i didn't i didn't interact with a lot of lot of black people, mostly in Hispanic neighborhood and most most integral community.
175
00:22:08.910 --> 00:22:19.830
Tom Baker: So I developed it, I mean, I found, I found that different cultural groups, you need to develop a certain sensitivities to certain issues and develop a cultural operating system to interact
176
00:22:20.220 --> 00:22:23.190
Tom Baker: And so I didn't have a ton of experience dealing
177
00:22:23.550 --> 00:22:31.800
Tom Baker: With with people at work. It just wasn't something I had to do it. But when I did, which was, you know, fairly, you know, fairly regularly wasn't every day, but it's fairly regularly.
178
00:22:32.220 --> 00:22:44.820
Tom Baker: I noticed, like I could feel it when I pull like I pulled the black black man over a car wasn't just me in the car, it was, it wasn't just me and him there. It was like hundreds of years.
179
00:22:44.940 --> 00:22:48.420
Tom Baker: Yes, countless encounters and history.
180
00:22:49.260 --> 00:22:59.850
Tom Baker: That was there with us. And when you have something like this happen that like rips like a hole in his time and it like it's all
181
00:23:00.900 --> 00:23:03.570
Tom Baker: It hasn't gone away. It's still there.
182
00:23:03.810 --> 00:23:10.380
Thad: It's just like, it's just one man, like, I mean, even if have no you didn't. I got pulled over for was a couple
183
00:23:12.180 --> 00:23:22.530
Thad: Of years back, and I remember getting stopped and I know I don't have anything on me. I'm not cool. It's all good. I know police officers, but they fill it in my chest. You know, I mean, I just, I couldn't
184
00:23:23.370 --> 00:23:30.720
Thad: I couldn't shake it. He goes, officer. And, you know, if I can be right in the home and my uniform and I want to know to make this black neighborhood and the officers have been pulled over.
185
00:23:31.140 --> 00:23:37.200
Thad: I'm Tara In my emotions. And so it's just a it's just one of those things, man. It's one of those. It's one of those things. It's just
186
00:23:38.370 --> 00:23:41.880
Thad: It was probably massacres and policing was just a constant feeling of being torn
187
00:23:42.450 --> 00:23:46.350
Tom Baker: I can imagine. I can't imagine. I mean it's, you think about the different like the
188
00:23:47.580 --> 00:23:55.830
Tom Baker: Places that you could inhabit and the positions in our society, you could have it have a place of identity, where you feel feel torn like I
189
00:23:56.220 --> 00:24:10.710
Tom Baker: I can imagine, like this, like, your, your experience must have really exposed you to the division that exists where along racial and cultural lines in our society. It's been fascinating experience being an officer. Yeah.
190
00:24:10.740 --> 00:24:17.340
Thad: Yeah, I wouldn't, I wouldn't trade a phone number that I listened to the years at least dollar and keys, find me somehow so
191
00:24:20.190 --> 00:24:31.740
Tom Baker: So what I know this is an impossible question to answer, but I'm going to have to ask it because I'm curious where it will take you. But what are your thoughts on what what happens now like
192
00:24:32.340 --> 00:24:43.290
Tom Baker: What, what can what can be done to create a more just and peaceful society, given where we are now.
193
00:24:45.240 --> 00:24:45.600
Tom Baker: Sorry.
194
00:24:46.740 --> 00:24:55.770
Thad: But I will say, and sometimes I said, and just what I was like one way that we as a community want change the police department.
195
00:24:56.430 --> 00:25:05.430
Thad: Easy going without some applications. I think one thing is more community members as part of justice. Look, it's kind of police out there, right, we have a shortage all over the nation.
196
00:25:05.700 --> 00:25:07.470
Thad: And so sometimes I said in jest, but
197
00:25:07.860 --> 00:25:14.520
Thad: I think it's not just about you know about skin color, but it's about those different experiences, but you have members of the LGBT
198
00:25:15.600 --> 00:25:20.940
Thad: Community who their right to have black males. You can't be talking about misconduct and things like that.
199
00:25:21.270 --> 00:25:22.830
Thad: And so we need to just have a more
200
00:25:23.100 --> 00:25:28.410
Thad: Diverse police force, but this is the thing that we don't change the reward structure policing.
201
00:25:28.800 --> 00:25:41.700
Thad: It does not matter what do we do we celebrate or rest as opposed to community engagement and we saw that if you celebrate our restaurants, as opposed to decrease calories that we celebrate a high number of reports being I remember one time.
202
00:25:42.300 --> 00:25:55.980
Thad: Reports in there. We had a crown areas we saturated do all these things and crime goes down. I mean, for several months if it goes down and we're in trouble because of course I process looks like we're not doing anything. But we asked the first time. So, I mean,
203
00:25:56.340 --> 00:26:03.660
Thad: How we even look at it just, it has to be completely times and maybe complete this wrong word. That's probably the wrong word, but we need to make a lot of
204
00:26:04.020 --> 00:26:13.050
Thad: readjustments some tweaks. I really think if we reward officers for engaging the community if we were officers for being innovative and come back problem solving.
205
00:26:13.410 --> 00:26:28.590
Thad: Tools outside of the rest, like, to me, or rest almost represents a failure, right, because that's the last resort right and not affiliate officer SIVA for you all societies part. Right. And so that's really brought in big, but I really think that if we want to change.
206
00:26:30.090 --> 00:26:36.030
Thad: It's a whole community thing, but as police officers, we have to show I haven't got to talk as like as a police officer right
207
00:26:36.300 --> 00:26:44.970
Thad: That's police officers, we have to show their rule willing to be in the show the new willing to make. It's like, it's like the a spouse or boyfriend who without cheated.
208
00:26:45.300 --> 00:26:56.340
Thad: Either come back and big and shudder to worthy for the chance. And that's what we're doing right now and I really feel like that I take us to the essence against officers and and maybe even have a zero tolerance of
209
00:26:56.640 --> 00:27:13.500
Thad: Guidance right now for this behavior that's posted recently right to expand our recruitment efforts to change our reward structures. I think that those are the fundamental aspects of changing now that didn't get to the broader structural issues that we have in society.
210
00:27:13.830 --> 00:27:25.260
Thad: And because of it brown and brown and black people continue to be concentrated a disadvantage of the certain urban context with someone deployed. We're often because that's just for the services are and where they're needed. Right.
211
00:27:26.580 --> 00:27:34.110
Thad: There might have a problem. And so this is must be within the police, but those are things that we can do the show today. We're doing all the weekend.
212
00:27:34.830 --> 00:27:43.530
Thad: To show you that we're sorry to show you that he wants to work the shows are we doing is an hour to move beyond traditional these metrics, I think.
213
00:27:45.480 --> 00:27:52.170
Tom Baker: I think it's a great point that you make about rewards. I mean, no matter what you do for a living, or
214
00:27:52.860 --> 00:28:10.860
Tom Baker: In life, everyone you're trying. We're trying to earn prestige. We're trying to earn rewards and we want people to like us. We want to be accepted and in policing. For me, my experience I knew that the best way for me to earn respect in my profession was to identify a bad guy.
215
00:28:11.220 --> 00:28:15.300
Tom Baker: And build a case, make a good arrest serve a search warrant.
216
00:28:15.570 --> 00:28:18.450
Thad: Peers in prison and put them in print and that that
217
00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:29.760
Tom Baker: Was the ultimate as I went on in my career. It was getting big numbers that was for when I think about it now at a fundamental level my
218
00:28:30.300 --> 00:28:50.910
Tom Baker: Fundamental my ultimate matrix for success was how much of a human beings life that I could send them in and incarcerate them. I mean all they're doing bad things, but it wasn't about, you know, solving social problems. It was about delivering on the things that are me prestige.
219
00:28:51.120 --> 00:28:52.020
Thad: Yes, and
220
00:28:53.100 --> 00:29:00.210
Thad: Human beings. Right. And we have to make a living. Right. I get it. You know, this is why don't officers stand up and speak out.
221
00:29:00.600 --> 00:29:05.820
Thad: They should. It's just not that simple. Right. It's not there, just, you know, is that something that says a lot of thought.
222
00:29:06.120 --> 00:29:13.950
Thad: That says a lot of gumption to do so and selling your writing. Anyone who sees among your peers that alone supervision, you show that you're that you're bad as I can.
223
00:29:14.550 --> 00:29:21.450
Thad: As I don't cut anybody any slack. You know, I mean you do those things questions. You know, there's obviously understand the the the
224
00:29:22.320 --> 00:29:27.270
Thad: The range of your discretion right if you made rank. Maybe you maybe if you're not
225
00:29:27.810 --> 00:29:30.780
Thad: Cool. I'm subtle, maybe we can kind of change that mentality. But if your
226
00:29:31.140 --> 00:29:39.510
Thad: Man, a young officer coming out and you build a name for yourself, you come out the academy welcome at the camera, everything will be my advice. I think everything's gonna be my advice. There was nothing like that. Right.
227
00:29:39.810 --> 00:29:48.540
Thad: But you come out you're charging energizing when I go out there and kiss bad guys. You're not thinking about, like you said your, your, your position in the broader society.
228
00:29:49.050 --> 00:29:55.680
Thad: Their position and role really is. So even that goes to China and it's not training all different tactics. It's not training.
229
00:29:56.130 --> 00:30:07.080
Thad: Work community engagement. That's good. But what is even better is the culture of the training like why are we here like trying us through a lens of public service and public service.
230
00:30:07.560 --> 00:30:18.900
Thad: And not crime fighters and I hadn't been an academy and God knows and seniors, but I doubt that has changed must at least in those war stories and this is what you going to learn the book, but this is how it is on the street type of deal.
231
00:30:19.530 --> 00:30:27.210
Thad: It's those type of things that we have to fundamentally change right you can recruit the best officers. But if the training.
232
00:30:27.870 --> 00:30:43.920
Thad: perpetuates those old self cultural traditions. If you're up to. Those are just based on who's been in the department, the longest and just not give us a good amount of trouble. That's not how you want to bring your officers in and so you got those fundamental changes that we can do this.
233
00:30:45.090 --> 00:30:54.180
Thad: It's Liverpool and it is squeaking and taking these knobs and we just gotta just to get the picture that we want. You can do it just has to has to be full throated from the top. Now,
234
00:30:55.110 --> 00:31:05.940
Tom Baker: What I've heard you say a couple times about like emphasizing I agree 100% that recruiting the next generation of people that are going to staff. These agencies is it's it's key and
235
00:31:06.270 --> 00:31:14.550
Tom Baker: Getting people they like the guy said this, people have a diversity of lived experience so that they can relate to the complexity of what life is like in America.
236
00:31:15.030 --> 00:31:30.480
Tom Baker: Do you worry. I know I worry about the types of. Do you think that the type of person that was so like I think back to the the the 2008 financial crisis after the financial crisis, a lot of people didn't want to be bankers anymore.
237
00:31:30.660 --> 00:31:32.610
Tom Baker: Because they had a hard time meeting girls at the
238
00:31:32.820 --> 00:31:37.500
Tom Baker: At the bar, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't something that that had social yeah
239
00:31:38.610 --> 00:31:45.450
Tom Baker: When I became an officer, lots of people thought that was a cool job, but that was a great thing to be
240
00:31:46.110 --> 00:31:51.060
Tom Baker: You know, not a lot of people didn't but again it afforded you a certain position in society.
241
00:31:51.510 --> 00:32:06.900
Tom Baker: Do you worry that given the the changing perceptions of what it means to be a police person or police officer police woman in America that this is going to change the type of narrow the range of types of people that become involved in law enforcement.
242
00:32:07.440 --> 00:32:12.930
Thad: And I definitely even feel like that's been going on for this. I was going to switch from the last couple decades or so.
243
00:32:13.230 --> 00:32:21.330
Thad: WITH POLICE SIRENS but i and this may be added a little bit, just a personal friend, my opinion, it seems like is even much more difficult now to get people to join.
244
00:32:21.690 --> 00:32:27.540
Thad: Over these years with Michael Brown and rice and all these things because of this thing that's on
245
00:32:28.230 --> 00:32:38.460
Thad: Policing, I do think that if leasing wants to recruit this next generation of an officer, they cannot take a look at the army's playbook or remember the army and I was growing up.
246
00:32:38.820 --> 00:32:44.790
Thad: A man, they may be an army got cool they spend money in recruitment they spend money on commercials. It's been money on community and as
247
00:32:45.450 --> 00:32:56.490
Thad: A recruiter if every high school almost every middle school, making sure and just getting them used to send a person uniform and getting used to be in part of this team and family, we're going to have have to have a
248
00:32:56.880 --> 00:33:02.370
Thad: Full on effort and take from their playbook. It's going to take us to that we got millennials coming in.
249
00:33:02.850 --> 00:33:10.380
Thad: We know that we have a change how we do policing that they infuse more technology and to make it more attractive to them and I have to give them more autonomy.
250
00:33:11.280 --> 00:33:16.110
Thad: In the context of what we can still monitor our office, but give them their full autonomy.
251
00:33:16.470 --> 00:33:26.760
Thad: With the changing reward structure. So make decisions on the on the streets and best last one, I have to take. Of course, if you want to get better people. You're gonna have to pay more money. And I know that's that's the
252
00:33:27.780 --> 00:33:31.800
Thad: Economics. Want to learn right eliminated was a disaster. You got limited resources.
253
00:33:31.890 --> 00:33:41.820
Thad: We're gonna have to make those investments, if we want to change it. We can't keep recruiting the same people became keep trying to recruit the same way we can keep reward the same way.
254
00:33:42.060 --> 00:33:47.730
Thad: And because going to change. I think in my book if you keep doing the same thing over and over again. That's insanity. That's what we've been doing
255
00:33:48.060 --> 00:33:55.230
Thad: So we're going to have to figure out and change with the times we can't be stuck behind the eight ball because what's going to happen is going to happen that one.
256
00:33:56.010 --> 00:34:07.380
Thad: Anymore, you're going to have a PC power everybody's about everybody's about the verge of retirement and we need young good and just a you got a lot younger officers out there I teaching my classes every day.
257
00:34:08.610 --> 00:34:15.090
Thad: This law firm just did I just did a position to steal well respected we hadn't lost respect as just a profession.
258
00:34:15.960 --> 00:34:28.470
Thad: But it's Mark and I think unless we keep up with the transit society and less willing to bend and just really transform ourselves and be again that that cheating boyfriend, baby. I probably kind of change is not going to change.
259
00:34:29.100 --> 00:34:37.020
Tom Baker: And it's coming. But I think when I when I envision a utopia of the future. There aren't any police around, you know, like, I don't think, like, so I don't want
260
00:34:37.680 --> 00:34:48.180
Tom Baker: I like the I also give her I I'm all for it. But we do live in an industrialized society complete, you know, and we're going to need some kind of police force, so
261
00:34:48.510 --> 00:35:07.050
Tom Baker: Let's get, let's, let's, I agree. Let's make a concerted effort to recruit the types of people we want and create. Do you think that it's something. So, given where policing in America came from and these the roots and the history and all of the the Scott. Do you think that
262
00:35:08.190 --> 00:35:25.110
Tom Baker: Is it something that can just be reformed, or could it be that there there may be needs to be new and new reorganization or some. Do you think it can be just tweaks, or do you think that the possibility of maybe some type of massive restructuring is Paul is something that might be needed.
263
00:35:26.400 --> 00:35:30.840
Thad: I think it's tweaks and for me and they say, maybe they're probably just
264
00:35:31.710 --> 00:35:38.160
Thad: Grasping things but for me to tweak how you reward people is not different for you to tweak that for me to find money out of other places, instead of
265
00:35:38.550 --> 00:35:48.420
Thad: Putting money in all these these tactical gear and all these tactical training that's we allocate it to the type of people that we want and provide them with the tools to be the police officers that we need right
266
00:35:48.960 --> 00:35:58.170
Thad: It'd be great to get the salsa refer to that community. But we've been trying to three years. It's been hard. I think it will increase that so you need people who are sensitive to the needs of certain communities.
267
00:35:58.530 --> 00:36:05.790
Thad: need these, like you said, with because black people maybe have one culture and tradition, doesn't mean that you have a group of Asian immigrants, a group of
268
00:36:06.570 --> 00:36:12.090
Thad: Latino immigrants who is not the same across the board, just like as human beings we all are similar similar in different ways will be
269
00:36:12.540 --> 00:36:18.210
Thad: Different cultures is important that we take those things. Importantly, and not just give me a three hour block. I remember I had
270
00:36:18.930 --> 00:36:25.230
Thad: My training for the police academy for Spanish like a one hour block chose Spanish and how that all of the cuss words and
271
00:36:26.070 --> 00:36:32.550
Thad: You know, I mean, so like you have to do for them that over looking at domestic violence, looking at a video from my
272
00:36:33.480 --> 00:36:49.680
Thad: House in the candidates 1003 nights at five video they put on for our like okay take this to this is Tim that is 10 question quiz, you're done, you gotta do better than that. Right. I'm not surprised have insights that we have some of the issues that we have. I'm not surprised that
273
00:36:50.910 --> 00:37:03.060
Thad: We have it seems like you have to tear gas right yeah expenditure gas and tactical fitness. How many of useless realities community, as we just had to get out for our district. We can't do what they will not make those invest
274
00:37:03.960 --> 00:37:18.390
Tom Baker: Now, and the agencies, I found I was working recently with an with an agency and had access to federal money and was trying to direct that money to programs, the department that were. It was like
275
00:37:19.710 --> 00:37:22.830
Tom Baker: Positive non enforcement contacts with kids like
276
00:37:23.040 --> 00:37:25.560
Tom Baker: Coaches police athletic league things
277
00:37:25.560 --> 00:37:26.130
Tom Baker: Like this.
278
00:37:26.580 --> 00:37:33.450
Tom Baker: And the agency turned down the money because they didn't have the infrastructure in place.
279
00:37:34.020 --> 00:37:41.610
Tom Baker: To to to engage to utilize the funds and didn't feel as though they'd be able to spend it and meet the obligations under the contract.
280
00:37:41.940 --> 00:37:53.070
Tom Baker: So even when they had we came along and said, hey, we have money for you to do this, the agency didn't have the capacity because they hadn't developed the institutional skill set.
281
00:37:53.280 --> 00:37:54.300
Thad: Yes, yes.
282
00:37:55.350 --> 00:37:55.890
Thad: Yes.
283
00:37:55.950 --> 00:37:58.860
Tom Baker: It was remarkable to me because my yes he did those things.
284
00:37:58.980 --> 00:38:01.890
Tom Baker: And this this agency just hadn't done it. It was remarkable.
285
00:38:02.220 --> 00:38:11.610
Thad: Yes. And you're right. So you have to hire the people that you want to bring on it has certain characteristics countries with it because Asian military diverse diverse
286
00:38:12.720 --> 00:38:15.810
Thad: Groups, whatever it is, right, and you have to have the training.
287
00:38:16.320 --> 00:38:20.490
Thad: The goal on the police have that you want. You have to keep like a Harvard about rewarding and things, but
288
00:38:20.730 --> 00:38:30.030
Thad: These things have to be aligned so cultures, then change overnight. And so you write as a gradual thing that we just kept though money. It's about a change of heart, change your mindset and I
289
00:38:31.230 --> 00:38:40.920
Thad: Have been at a time. I live. I had one I'm open to us all right all the time. I like right but if any other time I've been around, I feel the most promise of the most will
290
00:38:41.640 --> 00:38:48.450
Thad: Come out of this situation. And then I was here for a little bit. We had the OJ and the regulations during the Rodney King, I was young, but I remember those things.
291
00:38:49.020 --> 00:39:00.210
Thad: The recent things happen in 20 1415 I've been around with these things and and and this is the one time that feel the most hopeful and I feel like potential has been gotten. I feel like
292
00:39:00.990 --> 00:39:10.080
Thad: The good officers are tired of it. They're fed up with them with officers and our name is Martin dirt side of it and they're willing to speak up and they realize a chance to be with them and
293
00:39:10.530 --> 00:39:18.540
Thad: Like this police chiefs. Look, they know what the answers are. It's just, will their local government support them. Right. And these have been can I make these unilateral decision so
294
00:39:18.900 --> 00:39:34.680
Thad: We have the right people in place and I feel like it's a service, kind of like now officers like you know what to jump into these bad off so jeopardize, like I said, Good officers lives right so you jumped as in my life. My family's life. And so much so I'm most powerful I'm really hopeful.
295
00:39:35.760 --> 00:39:37.950
Thad: About this is just want to keep
296
00:39:39.090 --> 00:39:43.290
Tom Baker: Well, the fact that you're you're hopeful makes me a little bit hopeful I'm impossible to make hopeful so
297
00:39:43.860 --> 00:39:49.200
Tom Baker: Accomplish let me know if you haven't met if ask you a couple things about the coven situation so
298
00:39:49.680 --> 00:40:00.900
Tom Baker: That I've noticed I spend way more time online than I probably should. And I've noticed a ton of and I straddle these two worlds where half of my friends are cops.
299
00:40:01.170 --> 00:40:03.540
Tom Baker: And the other half are academics.
300
00:40:03.690 --> 00:40:08.370
Tom Baker: Yes, you would think that they're from different planets when they see the same thing.
301
00:40:09.030 --> 00:40:19.800
Tom Baker: And I noticed amongst the officers and then I saw I've seen like these videos online. I'll put a link to a couple of videos down there and the description of these officers in their full uniform
302
00:40:20.730 --> 00:40:28.230
Tom Baker: On duty getting their camera out and saying, you know, officers should not be enforcing these covert laws. It's a costume.
303
00:40:28.650 --> 00:40:37.800
Tom Baker: And I just wanted to get you as a policing scholar as a police officer, a former police officer. And as somebody who has been an administrator
304
00:40:38.250 --> 00:40:43.830
Tom Baker: Can you just tell me if you so if you let me just give you a hypothetical. So you're a sergeant, you're in charge of a squad.
305
00:40:44.220 --> 00:40:54.540
Tom Baker: You send all the guys at home for their off days they come back on Monday and one of you guys who works one of your beats pretty good guy doesn't cause anybody. Good. Good. Officer, whatever.
306
00:40:54.900 --> 00:40:58.110
Tom Baker: And you find out that he's got 3 million views on Facebook.
307
00:40:58.590 --> 00:41:12.900
Tom Baker: And YouTube and it's him talking about how officer shouldn't be enforcing these coven laws and he's in uniform and on duty. Can you tell us what that would look like for you as an administrator, what would end up happening to that person. And why is that too much to ask
308
00:41:13.440 --> 00:41:20.070
Thad: That's a good question. I guess this this that's a damn good question. Um, so first of my law enforcement how just as a feel off was
309
00:41:21.390 --> 00:41:30.750
Thad: undermining the authority of the Department of local government, my, my authority as a as a as a ministry.
310
00:41:32.490 --> 00:41:34.980
Thad: If you don't have that authority in the police department.
311
00:41:37.050 --> 00:41:40.350
Thad: Only. I'm trying to think of more political correct. I always tell them
312
00:41:40.680 --> 00:41:42.150
Tom Baker: You don't have to be politically correct with
313
00:41:42.150 --> 00:41:46.200
Thad: Like no, you don't want to have the image on the asylum.
314
00:41:46.560 --> 00:41:53.220
Thad: And you need that structure, right, because it's not how police officers, they will do if they feel despair, they will do what
315
00:41:54.360 --> 00:41:55.470
Thad: They feel you're being fair
316
00:41:56.520 --> 00:42:00.180
Thad: Enough. So the big question is the opposite of did that when I find them.
317
00:42:01.470 --> 00:42:01.800
Thad: Know,
318
00:42:02.940 --> 00:42:10.020
Thad: And I've had difficult officers in the past. And what happens is those difficult officers tend to be the Reverend leaders departments.
319
00:42:10.890 --> 00:42:16.290
Thad: So by firing them. You gotta have a lot of supporters that you're going to have a lot of this urge to
320
00:42:17.250 --> 00:42:30.480
Thad: How you take this officer and give him consequences but also utilize them in a way that he can be productive. Right. And so that will probably be my approach, he would definitely probably have these getting written up
321
00:42:31.980 --> 00:42:42.300
Thad: He may even get a suspension, depending on how bad it is. But this is the thing about the code. I'm torn. I watched the video and I was torn public health issue and public safety is police's poverty.
322
00:42:44.220 --> 00:42:50.070
Thad: But when does it infringe upon the constitutional rights. Right. What does our authority. How far as the cinema, does it in
323
00:42:50.730 --> 00:43:02.640
Thad: Vascular that problem comes in it. I do think when you put our mandates as administrator and you take away complete discretion of your officers. That's when you have a problem and
324
00:43:03.660 --> 00:43:08.400
Thad: So I think that the whole thing of the colon and the citations and tickets. Listen, if your supervisor at
325
00:43:08.730 --> 00:43:18.900
Thad: Them. You don't go out there, you're going to write them down because I say about you see this validating social distancing once you got those an officer, you gotta do. You got a family to feed. Right, so we can't take officers discretion away.
326
00:43:19.920 --> 00:43:22.980
Thad: I will try to find a way to utilize them where this
327
00:43:24.270 --> 00:43:36.690
Thad: Will Listen this best practice by some policy, let's start a task force and I'm a key part of figure out something to use an energy in a good way, but also shown as requested the cost and maintain the structure. It's a good
328
00:43:38.400 --> 00:43:44.820
Tom Baker: Wow, that's, that's a great. That's a good answer, made me think about it in a way that I hadn't hadn't thought about it.
329
00:43:45.000 --> 00:43:46.170
Thad: I should be a boxer right
330
00:43:46.470 --> 00:43:50.580
Tom Baker: Yeah, that's, that's some like jujitsu stuff you got going on there right there.
331
00:43:51.180 --> 00:43:56.790
Tom Baker: Putting them to use and not wanting the backlash is like, what's the The Art of War kind of stuff going on.
332
00:43:56.820 --> 00:43:57.810
Yeah.
333
00:43:59.550 --> 00:44:02.550
Tom Baker: So, what, what do you think it says
334
00:44:04.530 --> 00:44:12.150
Tom Baker: What do you think it says about policing that that this. Do you think it's. Do you think it says something about policing that
335
00:44:13.230 --> 00:44:14.940
Tom Baker: There seems to be this.
336
00:44:16.440 --> 00:44:25.830
Tom Baker: Like the way that this coven situation is being viewed and this sort of seeing this this strain of like
337
00:44:26.880 --> 00:44:36.780
Tom Baker: don't tread on me, which is always there, which I always see in the in the policing community presenting itself more
338
00:44:39.120 --> 00:44:46.200
Tom Baker: Because I just think of someone going on going on camera within their uniform. It's like I think of it as like an act of rebellion.
339
00:44:46.200 --> 00:44:46.980
Tom Baker: Almost
340
00:44:47.880 --> 00:44:50.340
Tom Baker: That the very intentional because officers know
341
00:44:50.670 --> 00:44:58.140
Tom Baker: That if you go in uniform your, you know, do you think that this said, You think it says anything about the state of policing right now or no.
342
00:44:59.430 --> 00:45:05.250
Thad: It shows that we're not utilizing our personnel properly, you have passionate person.
343
00:45:05.940 --> 00:45:15.990
Thad: Who are reform minded who may not have all the right analysis, but they have these ask the right questions. And so for me, as a leader. The first thing I'm thinking persons rebellion going why
344
00:45:16.620 --> 00:45:24.780
Thad: Why is it, why is it otherwise good officer who does the police job will. Why are they rebuilt. And that's really the core of because we're not
345
00:45:25.290 --> 00:45:33.180
Thad: Losing it right. We're in the business of utilizing our tool as effective as possible. Now some of the problems on how to lead with no, that's good. I was able to have when I was working
346
00:45:33.510 --> 00:45:38.550
Thad: I was able to say, you know, whether you'd be assigned this officer here, this also needs to be this actually isn't working and training.
347
00:45:38.790 --> 00:45:49.380
Thad: They shouldn't be illustrated. We're going to try it because we need to have these conversations and training. Right. Well, this is to be the officer who's our public information officer who who talks about things we find ways and avenues to use them.
348
00:45:50.910 --> 00:45:55.410
Thad: They'll be my first question why they rebelled and that's why I said we have to make sure that they get repercussions.
349
00:45:56.820 --> 00:45:58.560
Thad: Because also have the right to be frustrated to
350
00:45:59.220 --> 00:46:09.930
Thad: UK other man authority. So it would depend on the degree of severity. They're just pretty much just calling out everything we do and just pretty much undermined everything that's one thing you're not part of the team because that
351
00:46:10.920 --> 00:46:21.960
Thad: Culture is apart important policing doesn't have to be a negative culture, you know, I mean that family unit that trust those not necessarily bad aspects, the lanes with it makes it bad. And so
352
00:46:22.380 --> 00:46:30.150
Thad: If my SOS administrator, if my officers don't trust as officer, that's a problem. So if I can salvage that, that's great.
353
00:46:30.450 --> 00:46:41.250
Thad: But I'm willing to sacrifice, sacrifice there watching for the other 99 that's just me. You know, I mean, if it comes to that. But I want to try to keep them all in the fall, because that's good for morale, because often will say, wow.
354
00:46:41.820 --> 00:46:46.950
Thad: That you despair. They give us a second chance they know that we're human, they know that we have bad days.
355
00:46:47.250 --> 00:46:48.480
Thad: I'm committed to this place.
356
00:46:48.630 --> 00:46:56.010
Thad: I'll take a little bit less paid. I'll send a position longer because I believe in them and they got my back. So, these days, I must be good and then
357
00:46:56.490 --> 00:47:12.570
Thad: On the surface application can be, but that have officers undermining completed having total disdain for the badge is disrespectful to the badge and not either DEPARTMENT OF THE BEST, AND OF COURSE viral. But if it's just a rebel like this user energy and let's see which time
358
00:47:16.050 --> 00:47:24.150
Tom Baker: And it does. I think people would be surprised, who haven't worked in a police department to realize that there are. I called them shut house lawyers.
359
00:47:24.270 --> 00:47:25.380
Tom Baker: In here.
360
00:47:25.440 --> 00:47:28.320
Tom Baker: Because it was the officer that knew all these policies and you
361
00:47:28.320 --> 00:47:28.650
Thad: Have
362
00:47:29.340 --> 00:47:32.430
Tom Baker: You had to get trouble without getting in trouble.
363
00:47:33.210 --> 00:47:34.290
Thad: Yes, if
364
00:47:34.740 --> 00:47:48.660
Tom Baker: That their power is not necessarily all in the hands of administrators and there are people with influence within a department and there's you can't walk in and just say what you can't just come right walk in and run the show, however you want.
365
00:47:48.900 --> 00:48:00.120
Tom Baker: That expected and we had a we had a boss who just got promoted came to the squad and he was he was being way way way to know he took away our
366
00:48:01.110 --> 00:48:16.620
Tom Baker: Our ability to make decisions. He was there a micromanager and it got to the point where it was, it got it got it became a problem. So we all band together and met in a parking lot at three in the morning and decided that we were not going to say anything and briefing.
367
00:48:17.430 --> 00:48:20.430
Tom Baker: Anything unless we were asked a direct question by him.
368
00:48:20.730 --> 00:48:32.430
Tom Baker: Yes, and not going to talk to. And by the end of that shift we are at already. I was the senior guy this. Well, we already had a big powwow because he called. He's like, I immediately after review like texting me, we got to meet
369
00:48:32.790 --> 00:48:38.760
Tom Baker: You know, and we we were able to sort it out, but it was the rebellion, what led to the communication.
370
00:48:39.660 --> 00:48:40.110
Somewhere.
371
00:48:41.610 --> 00:48:41.940
Thad: Right.
372
00:48:42.270 --> 00:48:50.430
Tom Baker: Exactly. We needed to have some kind of like because workplaces are not democratic. You know, you don't. But you need to have some kind of say
373
00:48:50.670 --> 00:49:03.000
Tom Baker: So it's very complicated. And I really appreciate you providing because when I saw this, I'll be. I was like, Oh, you can't haven't gone out saying the state, they can't do that. Just get rid of. But I never thought I never really broke because I wasn't an administrator
374
00:49:03.960 --> 00:49:10.350
Thad: Yeah. Yes. And it's fun out of step one. Last Door. I remember I was 25 I became a shift in 25
375
00:49:11.010 --> 00:49:19.110
Thad: And I remember I went in and so I'm young, young, young black our Mohawk right and the first thing I did was I pretty much
376
00:49:19.530 --> 00:49:24.480
Thad: clear about your personal files and there's that misconduct. Anything else you have a clean slate.
377
00:49:24.900 --> 00:49:29.550
Thad: If I don't personally train you. I can hold you accountable. So I increase the training for my unit.
378
00:49:29.940 --> 00:49:37.110
Thad: I gave them a clean slate. As much as I could. Whether even with just symbolic right but now you know that we got structure. Now some you screw up.
379
00:49:37.680 --> 00:49:45.630
Thad: You can never ever reprimand now you go up that that change the order. Everybody feels that is fair because you didn't give them a second chance and and these are the things that don't cost money.
380
00:49:46.020 --> 00:49:51.000
Thad: Don't cost money just just pops a little, a little heart a little thinking a little innovation.
381
00:49:51.510 --> 00:49:59.190
Thad: So that's how you can get their buy in. And that's how you use your off person and you retain them because you don't want to take off so you invested money into
382
00:49:59.820 --> 00:50:09.750
Thad: The has a spare this wealth of knowledge. You don't have to go somewhere else. You want to keep on me. He wanted to blossom and want them to grow their right, and that's what you want to do, because again it is an industry and we have to
383
00:50:11.190 --> 00:50:20.400
Thad: My wife told me she said you're not eating goals and objectives that you're leading people don't you told me that this is my whole perspective of how I I live.
384
00:50:21.690 --> 00:50:25.500
Thad: So if you focus on the person, those initial phone probably
385
00:50:27.000 --> 00:50:36.060
Tom Baker: Well given given the crisis that policing is face facing like right now while we're talking. I really wish that you were still out there. Leading. Leading a squad or whatever.
386
00:50:37.380 --> 00:50:41.910
Tom Baker: I know you're, you're in the middle of an uprising right now and you're outside of your windows and
387
00:50:42.630 --> 00:50:46.530
Tom Baker: Busy and you're making this transition to this job. So, your time is
388
00:50:47.070 --> 00:50:53.580
Tom Baker: Limited, and you're, you know, I really appreciate you taking the time. But I wanted to give you before I let you go, I just wanted to give you one last
389
00:50:53.940 --> 00:51:03.540
Tom Baker: Sort of window. Do you have any given what's going on in the country, given what's going on in the world. Do you have any sort of final thoughts for people that might be listening to this.
390
00:51:03.960 --> 00:51:10.560
Thad: Yeah, I just I just let me say this for the everyday civilians, the job police officers are
391
00:51:11.760 --> 00:51:13.770
Thad: Have so many contacts with people they go well.
392
00:51:14.790 --> 00:51:23.730
Thad: We're doing it as well as they can with the resources that they have their room for improvement. Yes, that are rising infringe upon know
393
00:51:24.030 --> 00:51:30.180
Thad: But it starts with community. But police departments, we have to take the honest, we have to show there were that
394
00:51:30.510 --> 00:51:37.560
Thad: That that she didn't boyfriend and be one of the chance and we willing to spend that money we willing to engage with to go out and do those things we say we wouldn't do
395
00:51:38.220 --> 00:51:45.930
Thad: Just to show you that we worked it and then we want this to happen. So everybody's holds together, Tom, what you're doing is amazing work.
396
00:51:46.260 --> 00:51:49.140
Thad: I appreciate what you do. I look at your post sometimes and I'm looking at your
397
00:51:49.710 --> 00:51:58.470
Thad: discussion posts on Facebook and I see the dichotomy of of your, of your friends not love stimulating conversation. Cuz that's what's needed because we
398
00:51:59.100 --> 00:52:09.360
Thad: We have more common than we even though a lot of times we're saying the same thing. You just let me from a different angle. So just keep going. You're doing brother. I appreciate you having me. This has been a had a wonderful time.
399
00:52:10.170 --> 00:52:17.430
Tom Baker: Well, thank you so much. And I want to thank you for that, because I you said you're standing in that gap trying to bridge these two
400
00:52:17.850 --> 00:52:32.250
Tom Baker: Different groups. I really appreciate the work you're doing and America, like the American police. They need to get down on their hands and knees and crawl in and say sorry because they've done messed up the, you know, like this is bad, bad, bad. Yeah.
401
00:52:32.460 --> 00:52:34.860
Tom Baker: Yeah, like you said, the cheating boyfriend may need to beg.
402
00:52:34.890 --> 00:52:36.840
Tom Baker: Because yes, they're in trouble. Yeah.
403
00:52:37.350 --> 00:52:37.620
Thad: Yes.
404
00:52:37.680 --> 00:52:38.700
Yes you very much.