On this episode, I talk with Lauren Morgan about the complicated relationship between the foster care system and the juvenile criminal justice system in the U.S. Lauren is a PhD student in the Department of Criminology and Criminal Justice at the University of Missouri – St. Louis. Prior to becoming an academic Lauren was (and still is) a professional water skier. We also talk a little bit about the George Floyd murder in Minneapolis and how the fallout may be impacting children in foster care. Please contact Lauren via email or Twitter:
Tom Baker has been a PhD student in UMSL's Criminology and Criminal Justice program since 2017. Tom received his BA in Political Science from Arizona State University and worked as a police officer for approximately nine years. His research interests include police culture, use of force, and qualitative research methods. https://www.umsl.edu/ccj/Graduate%20Students/baker.html
Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/user?u=35486104)
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Tom Baker: Alright, hey, thanks for coming and hanging out with us for a little bit. So, what, what are you doing right now where are you and what are you doing to sort of write out the virus.
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lauren morgan: Yeah, so I'm in Florida right now actually just got off the water water ski this morning.
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lauren morgan: I want to ski a ton. So that's kind of what I do and it's been nice to kind of get away and
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lauren morgan: And I've been, you know, I had to finish school those last semester. But I was kind of nice to get my head off out of the school and the hustle and bustle of everything and kind of slow down a little bit and enjoy some family time so
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Tom Baker: That's kind of returning to your roots. What did you, you did for a living, before
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Tom Baker: You. Yeah. What was that
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lauren morgan: Yeah, I am. I'm a professional Otter scary. I still water ski professionally, trying to keep it up. It's a lot harder when you're sitting on a desktop.
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lauren morgan: Trying to keep my body going how to deal with all these injuries. All of a sudden, I don't know. I'm just getting older, what's going on, but yeah i i water skied I guess I've been waterskiing
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lauren morgan: Internationally, and competitively. I was just thinking about it for like the last 15 years now.
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lauren morgan: So I was kind of crazy to think about, but
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Tom Baker: Yeah, that's sort of like the family business, we've talked about this before. It's a family business.
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lauren morgan: And my thing. My dad was a pro skier. Back in the 80s when water skiing was much more popular was on TV and all that. And then it's been kind of a family sport. My mom does it for fun. My sister does it, my grandparents did it so it's it's definitely been a family thing.
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lauren morgan: And then I ended up going to college on a water ski scholarship. So just kind of grew into that and
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lauren morgan: Yeah, it's been kind of a different kind of background, but I'm really happy.
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Tom Baker: Yeah.
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Tom Baker: So it's kind of when I think of water skiers, I don't think of academics, I think, like,
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Tom Baker: I don't know what I think because I hadn't really thought I hadn't really thought that much. You know, I've seen them. I've seen water skiing on TV. And I thought, Oh, that looks really hard and dangerous.
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Tom Baker: What's fun, but I didn't. I didn't know anything about how does. So your, your dad was a was water skier turn physician and now your water skier, and you're becoming a professional academic, how does a person go. So how did you like, what was your path.
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Tom Baker: From academic from
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Tom Baker: Water skier to academic. How did that happen.
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lauren morgan: Yeah yeah so
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lauren morgan: I so like I said, I got a scholarship for water skiing and I went to a small school in Florida, Georgia Southern college and majored in psychology
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lauren morgan: And I was never really into school. To be honest, I was just like, I gotta, I gotta do this to sales team and I wanted to do this.
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lauren morgan: collegiate water ski thing because it looked fun, you know, so that was kind of my my thing. And then I towards the end of school start realizing Well shoot water skiing is not gonna last forever. So
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lauren morgan: I better figure something out here, and I actually took a course that was like a psych KRIM crossover course and it was called like the criminal criminalization mental illness or something like that and
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lauren morgan: It was actually taught by my mentor, a good friend of mine. I think you met him at his see Dr. Prisons late
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Tom Baker: Oh yeah, great.
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Tom Baker: Great guy.
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lauren morgan: Yeah, so I took that class with him. And he was like, hey, like I think you're really kind of passionate about these things. Have you ever kind of considered, you know, kind of taking this further, and then he
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lauren morgan: brought me to a conference, the Southern criminal justice conference. And then I was just kind of hooked from there. And I was like, all right, I'm gonna. It was a little too late to switch majors.
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lauren morgan: I was already a senior that point, but I was like, I'm gonna, you know, I'm going to do a master's in this. And so I moved up to Seattle.
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lauren morgan: Started my masters and then I started working in different internships and things on like the mental health side because that's what I kind of knew, and then I got hooked up with a woman who
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lauren morgan: Was really interesting and she was just kind of like, Hey, I have this opening here as a counselor at this at this group home.
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lauren morgan: And so I started working with foster care. And then that kind of pushed me to want to do more school after that. So that's kind of where I am now so
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Tom Baker: Okay, so it was so it was like you were basically kind of recruited
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lauren morgan: So, yeah.
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lauren morgan: Kinda kind of, I guess I just kind of like kept moving forward. I never had, like,
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lauren morgan: I never really knew what the next step was going to be, but I just kind of kept moving forward and always had a little a next step plan. And then, now I've kind of really found that I have a passion for this this foster care, kind of thing so
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lauren morgan: Yeah, I was kind of interesting, but I'm happy.
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Tom Baker: Booked out so it's it's kind of me. I mean, it's just like, it's just like any other profession, if you're if you're working in a profession and you're
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Tom Baker: Thinking about building the next generation of people that are going to take over from you and you see somebody that you think has talent. It makes sense that you
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Tom Baker: Bring them in and provide some mentorship. So what so you so you you sort of like are drawn into this idea of studying criminology criminal justice.
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Tom Baker: And then you had the exposure to the mental health course. And I think I understand how that might be tied into that we'll talk about that a little bit later.
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Tom Baker: But was there anything. What was it, was there anything in particular about your experience working. Can you talk a little bit about your experience working in the in the foster care. So like in that was. It was an internship. You said
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lauren morgan: At the beginning, and then I then I try and like sitting down when I left, I had finished my masters and I just kind of continued working for them. After that, as a case manager.
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Tom Baker: Well, what can you tell us a little bit about those first experiences. So like you, you, you're a professional water skier you've gotten to go to your
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Tom Baker: Your own university and then all of a sudden you didn't have any experience as growing up in the foster like it wasn't something you were related. So can you talk a little bit about what was
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Tom Baker: Was it what you expected, was it shocking. What, like what was that like, what were you doing and how did it sort of impact you can, you talked a little bit about that.
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lauren morgan: Yeah, for sure. I mean, so, yeah. I started as an intern and I started seeing these things. These injustice ease. I was just like blown away by
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lauren morgan: So the place where I worked was actually an emergency placement facility. So it was like
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lauren morgan: A short term stay place for kids who who couldn't you didn't have a foster family. They weren't a good match, they couldn't find a good placement. A lot of them had years of trauma.
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lauren morgan: They're typically on the older side of foster care. So like teenage 15 1617 years old and and unfortunately, those are the kids that a lot of families don't want because their heart.
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lauren morgan: And so I actually really related to a lot of the kids like you know I wasn't one of those people who you have different people who come in and work at this place, it is you have the people who kind of want to
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lauren morgan: Be in charge and control the kids, but I was more like, you know, let's go play basketball. Let's go to this, you know, more just kind of like just wanted to hang out with the kids in the beginning and then
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lauren morgan: I started seeing some patterns.
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lauren morgan: That really kind of caught my attention. One was because it was emergency placement facility.
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lauren morgan: We can keep the kids longer than 30 days you usually we kept them for 14 but if they were doing well we can keep them a little longer.
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lauren morgan: And it was really unfortunate because you'd see the kids starting to make progress, and then they be sent somewhere else and then that placement. I mean, we knew that it probably wasn't gonna work out for them because
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lauren morgan: You know, they're not used to being in a strict family setting, you know, that's just not what their life has been so I started seeing some patterns and then one
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lauren morgan: One person one girl in particular, there's one story that like really stands out to me. And that was, I had a girl who I became really close with over like a couple weeks.
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lauren morgan: And she had she had been into our place like three or four different times. And I was like, What's going on with her like she just keeps coming back.
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lauren morgan: And then it was like right around the holidays and I had worked up to Christmas Eve and she was there. And then I came back.
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lauren morgan: And and after New Year, and she was gone. And I was like, Where'd she go, you know, and they're like, oh, well, she got placed somewhere and
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lauren morgan: You know she's that's all we knew we didn't know where they went in and then she came back and I was like oh my gosh, you're back like what are you doing here. She's like, Yeah, I ran away.
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lauren morgan: And I was like, well, why'd you run. She's like, I just wasn't happy in that householders too many kids and
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lauren morgan: It just, I just didn't like it. I can do my schoolwork, you know, it was just terrible. And I was like, Okay, cool. Well, did you just come straight here, you're like, I don't understand.
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lauren morgan: And I didn't know about the foster care system. At that point, and I still like learning Alice. She's like, no, I spend the night at the juvenile detention center and then
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lauren morgan: And then they put me here today. And she's like, I knew if I ran away. I'd get to come back here because I like it here. And I was like, oh my gosh. So how many times have you been to
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lauren morgan: juvie, you know, and she's like, Oh, like 15 or 16 times and I was like oh my gosh, like, what is going on here so that just like from then I was like, and I was in this masters of
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lauren morgan: criminology. Right. And I was just like, what this is. What is going on here. And so that's when I really started like kind of diving in on my own and realizing that
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lauren morgan: The literature wasn't really there either. And so I had to do a lot of my own kind of digging and and that kind of sparked a fire in me.
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Tom Baker: So it was a connection.
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Tom Baker: The connection to an individual and see in real time. What
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Tom Baker: The system sort of does to somebody and I imagine it.
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Tom Baker: When you're telling a story how hard it would be so if you're if you're a person who doesn't have a lot of supervision as a as a youth and you don't have a lot of structure and you're in charge of sort of making your way through life.
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Tom Baker: To then put in a family where they're going to be
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Tom Baker: Telling, it could be really constricting it or we had this reminds me of a story tell my own story. Now we have this with my foster story.
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Tom Baker: Yeah experience was we interacted with the foster care system as police officers quite a bit when I was an officer and there was this one girl is still. Oh, is it just pops in my mind every once in a while she was like the same age as my daughter at the time.
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Tom Baker: You know she was like, like 11 years old or so, and I had written a search warrant, it was like for like they were selling heroin and we went and served a search warrant a house on heroin and arrested her mom and her mom's boyfriend and a few people in the house and
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Tom Baker: The little girl was like totally calm. She's like, excuse me, officer.
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Tom Baker: Before we leave. Can I just make sure that we have everything I need for my little brother and I was like, well, what is your little brother need and her little brother was asthmatic
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Tom Baker: And she had, like, was she was like, can I asked my mom if she got the computer all and like walk this little girl out to the patrol car. Open the you know the door. She's like, Mom, did you get the Elbe utero.
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Tom Baker: And left to the, you know, I told you to and she's telling the mom like I told you to do this, these things.
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Tom Baker: And so this little girl was like
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Tom Baker: Taking care of her little brother taking care of herself taking care of her mother managing this home.
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Tom Baker: And then all of a sudden you have these people with guns come in and take everyone and she's used to it. Yeah.
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Tom Baker: And then I imagine her being put into foster care home and then having some stranger's like you're gonna get up this that you're going to do this you're going to do that. How like overwhelming. That would be so I'm sorry to tell a story. I just
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Tom Baker: Was thinking about this. I was thinking about her and wanted to talk about her so
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lauren morgan: And it's the same in these group care cardiac care facilities like all of a sudden they're being told what to do after being on the street for like a week.
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lauren morgan: You know, you have to go to bed at this time. You gotta you know make your bed, your chores, you're eating this. At this time, or you don't eat and all these rules and the kids just don't respond well and all. And so
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lauren morgan: The it's really interesting when you have, like I said, those people who come in and want to control and it just they clash a butt heads and it's just, it's terrible. So
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Tom Baker: It's a bear. I mean, it's a very difficult job to
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Tom Baker: Get somebody to, hey, you're going to be dealing with because you're bringing you have so many
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Tom Baker: So much everyone has history but like when you're bringing trauma and you know stress and anxiety. It just makes it very difficult
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Tom Baker: For so can imagine working there would be very, very challenging work.
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lauren morgan: It was it was stressful. It got to the point where it was like, Okay, I'm really glad I did this and I'm here and and just, you know, the turnover is so high and those jobs because no one can maintain that
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lauren morgan: And so that was basically where it was. I was like, Okay, I'm either going to go to law school or do my PhD and make a difference. Somehow, and then I actually went to ASC that year. I think I met you there.
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lauren morgan: met up with Andrea, who was my colleague got at Seattle you and then in Dale and those people in there like you should you should just apply some PhD programs. And I was like, Yeah, you're probably right.
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lauren morgan: Just kind of spiraled but I was worried about kind of getting bogged down in law school and kind of like the hustle and bustle of law school and just forgetting my passion and why I wanted to do this. So I think the PhD programs better fit.
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Tom Baker: Well, I think you found like a fascinating. I don't know many people that have considered, you know, studying the intersection of
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Tom Baker: Child Welfare I hadn't really given it much thought. So I think it's
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Tom Baker: I'm sure people have been working on it. But it's been fascinating to meet you and then be exposed a little. Can you tell us just so people are listening who may not be familiar with, like,
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Tom Baker: The what the juvenile justice system is so everyone sort of has an idea of like, oh, if you do something, get ready to go to jail, but there's a whole sort of system in place.
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Tom Baker: Around the country in the United States. It's not like this uniform type of thing. We can use tell us in the United States and 2020. What if you were describing it to someone from who knows what would you, how would you describe briefly the US criminal justice system in 2020
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lauren morgan: Yeah. So did you also stem
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lauren morgan: Yeah, so the juvenile system is is largely community supervision, you know, we don't detain kids anymore. It really and that's for a couple different reasons. And that's really, it's a good thing.
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lauren morgan: But there's kind of mass supervision thing that happens where these kids are are being supervised for
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lauren morgan: For a little, you know, things like status defenses and little things like that. And it's kind of it ensnares them, you really
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lauren morgan: But the good thing is like you know even look back in like the 1990s, like the the the peak of like the war on drugs and things like that. We had almost 150,000 kids detained.
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lauren morgan: And now we're down to like less than 20,000 so it's just been a steady decline.
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lauren morgan: Which is which is like I said, is great, but it's transferred into this community supervision and then all the different pathways that we know you know leads to adult system.
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lauren morgan: Involvement. So that's what the juvenile system kind of looks like now. It's just like
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lauren morgan: A bunch of that they call them deputy juvenile officers in St. Louis. But probation officers supervising these kids. And that's, that's basically what it is and and it is more of a rehabilitative model for sure than the adult system.
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lauren morgan: But, you know, we run into issues of transfer and certification or kids that are 1718 they don't know
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lauren morgan: 1617 they don't they don't know. Sometimes they're being urged to transfer or get certified because they think it'll be better and they won't have to have this probation officer.
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lauren morgan: looking over their shoulders and then they go on to the adult system and it could go really well. Like a prosecutor. Just be like, Oh, we're not dealing with this. This is a kid or they can be in the system. And that's it. You know, so it's, there's a lot more uncertainty there.
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lauren morgan: Especially with that that certification and transfer stuff but largely it's a it's a community based supervision model.
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Tom Baker: So it's so around the country, you had this large institution holding 150,000 kids and then over time there's been this move to do incarcerate them.
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Tom Baker: And send them out into the community under supervision. That's a revision is like probation officers juvenile probation officers. So it's going to take. But what I'm getting at is, it's, it's not a nationally run program each county is going to have its own thing. So like
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Tom Baker: Do they all look the same, or are they different
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lauren morgan: Yeah.
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lauren morgan: They're all very different. I mean, well I can talk, I can speak to, like, the differences in SEO on St. Louis, you know, actually I a couple weeks ago. I'm doing this qualitative project right and so I interviewed the chief juvenile Officer of St. Louis.
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lauren morgan: And she kind of gave me an example. She's like back in 2006 was there kind of the peak of incarceration, and they had
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lauren morgan: Like 200 kids in detained in St. Louis. And now this was pre code. So I assume it's even lower. Now, but this was they had like 20 kids that were detained and it's all you know personal
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lauren morgan: Offenses things assault with a weapon, stuff like that. It's not anything like a status event or anything like that. Whereas, it's all, it's all dependent on funding, whereas in Seattle.
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lauren morgan: They're, they're receiving federal funding there. And so in Seattle. There's just, there's these different little loopholes, but they can't attain a kid for status offense, because one there's they do it because there's not enough placements for these kids.
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lauren morgan: And there's like loophole, so like the like the young girl I was talking about. So she because she doesn't have a valid or guardian, there's this thing called the valid court order exception and if you don't have a guardian.
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lauren morgan: Then you can be placed in detention, because you don't have a place to go. So in St. Louis. That doesn't happen, which is really interesting. I, I
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lauren morgan: Kind of thought that Seattle would be more progressive in that way and and and I was very shocked. With that, actually. And I've been really impressed with the St. Louis system.
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lauren morgan: I was shocked to hear that they only had 20 kids and I think overcoat. I think there's like less than 10 kids being detained right now. So that's great.
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lauren morgan: But it does it's all dependent on funding and if they're receiving the funding or not. And if they are, then they have to comply by dinner also
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Tom Baker: So I that's it's really surprised. This is really surprising to me because having come from out West and then come to St. Louis, and then being exposed to the policing and St. Louis, and then
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Tom Baker: West, and I, I would argue that St. Louis has several years behind like it has a lot of problems. So I'm kind of really surprised.
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Tom Baker: That the juvenile justice system.
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Tom Baker: Would sort of and then when you compare it to a place like Seattle. When I think of Seattle, I would imagine that there would be, you know, trying to embrace science and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
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Tom Baker: I'm a little skeptical of people who think they can use the scientific method to to encourage
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Tom Baker: People and reforming but
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Tom Baker: Yeah, anyway. What, what do you think if you had. If you had to guess, what would be your explanation for why a progressive place like Seattle would be falling behind.
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Tom Baker: Regressive place like the St. Louis, St. Louis area and many, many, many ways.
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lauren morgan: I think it has to do with money, a little bit and just cost to living, maybe because
00:19:49.890 --> 00:19:52.170
lauren morgan: It's Seattle's it's hard to live in Seattle.
00:19:52.500 --> 00:19:52.860
00:19:54.240 --> 00:20:05.520
lauren morgan: You cannot afford to live there, it's just it's insane and the homeless population is so high there. I think there's like all these like different homeless communities that are like kind of embraced there.
00:20:05.940 --> 00:20:11.730
lauren morgan: So, like, a lot of the kids that would run away they go and hang out intensity and they'd have places to go. And it was
00:20:12.300 --> 00:20:23.520
lauren morgan: Like okay, out of sight, out of mind. Whereas in St. Louis. It's not like that, you know, and I think there's more foster families because they have the means to do that with the lower cost of living and things like that.
00:20:24.660 --> 00:20:30.780
lauren morgan: Because, you know, I don't think the, you know, foster families obviously get paid, but
00:20:32.280 --> 00:20:39.750
lauren morgan: It's makes more sense in St. Louis, they calculate the cost of just outrageous in Seattle. And I think that that might be a huge piece of it.
00:20:41.220 --> 00:20:42.630
lauren morgan: Yeah, so
00:20:43.950 --> 00:20:52.380
Tom Baker: So, so it could be the, the growing inequality in a place like Seattle makes it so that the people who could provide the structure
00:20:53.340 --> 00:20:57.900
Tom Baker: They maybe don't care. And then the people who would be willing to do it just can't afford to
00:20:58.230 --> 00:21:00.720
Tom Baker: Do it. So like a middle class family and Seattle.
00:21:01.020 --> 00:21:11.970
Tom Baker: The only people who could maybe do in Seattle are like really well wealthy people. There's a few of the very few of them. Whereas in in someplace like St. Louis, it might be easier to like afford to live there. Is that kind of that's kind of what you're
00:21:12.330 --> 00:21:14.550
lauren morgan: What you're doing exactly and
00:21:14.730 --> 00:21:27.540
lauren morgan: You know, you see similar trends with like Seattle and LA and Portland and all those cities, just because of the cost of living. I mean, but then also all all the studies that are kind of done are done out there.
00:21:28.290 --> 00:21:42.390
lauren morgan: So they're like very progressive and that way. But you know, I come into St. Louis, and I talked about cross over us. And they're like, well, what is that like they really don't even know. So it's been it's been interesting to kind of compare the two cities.
00:21:43.110 --> 00:21:44.550
Tom Baker: Will Seattle to is like
00:21:44.610 --> 00:21:49.050
Tom Baker: It's kind of like a magnet for troubled youth out imagine like select San Francisco.
00:21:49.410 --> 00:22:02.370
Tom Baker: You know, Seattle Vancouver in Canada. If you're I know in Canada, if you're if you're wanting to run away from home, you don't, you're going to go to Toronto, where you're going to Vancouver Vancouver is a lot warmer. So I'll go to Vancouver.
00:22:02.790 --> 00:22:12.360
Tom Baker: And I think the same thing is true here if you if you read it. So if I live in Wyoming and I want to want to run away from home. I'm not going to go to St. Louis. I'm going to go to go to Seattle or I'm going to go to San Francisco.
00:22:12.630 --> 00:22:22.650
Tom Baker: So they have a much bigger sort of problem. Problem social problem to manage. I want to before I forget, I want to apologize because it's a few minutes ago I said that
00:22:24.720 --> 00:22:37.260
Tom Baker: I criticize St. Louis and said that Seattle was progressive and that St. Louis was regressive that was not the right medicine. What I should have said was is that St. Louis has been especially hard by the industrialization.
00:22:37.770 --> 00:22:47.280
Tom Baker: And I mean, it's been ravaged and God from one of the, you know, major American city to city that's been depopulated the industry has left people have really suffered
00:22:47.760 --> 00:22:56.580
Tom Baker: So the institutions are poor are not as well funded. There's a long history of racial discrimination in Missouri and the police department as
00:22:56.970 --> 00:23:07.830
Tom Baker: racial issues. So there's a whole bunch of and it's very complex. So I apologize, too. I love St. Louis. I think it's a fantastic city, so I apologize for saying that was a regressive so
00:23:09.180 --> 00:23:23.250
Tom Baker: I wanted to get that in there before I forgot because I didn't want to get a nasty email bottom I didn't ask the email but I don't want too many of them. Yeah. So, so that's the, that's the sort of the broad strokes of what like this criminal justice system is this diffuse
00:23:24.270 --> 00:23:33.750
Tom Baker: organises a set of organizations around the country with a lot of variability. But there's this general move to shift people from being in custody to being on some type of Community release.
00:23:34.290 --> 00:23:41.910
Tom Baker: And then, so why why you have that institution, there's this this other institution, working with youth and it's this child welfare system.
00:23:42.300 --> 00:23:53.280
Tom Baker: Can you talk a little bit about how that looks. It looks like a 2020. What is the if a child can't live in the United States. If the child can't live at home with their family, for whatever reason, safety, whatever.
00:23:53.700 --> 00:23:58.200
Tom Baker: What and they don't have family members day. What does that look like for use in America today.
00:23:59.040 --> 00:24:06.270
lauren morgan: So this one is also very complicated and and similar to the criminal justice system. It's different in every state vastly different.
00:24:06.810 --> 00:24:13.920
lauren morgan: And there's also been this movement towards privatization of foster care so that adds a whole other element that I'm learning about
00:24:14.220 --> 00:24:26.790
lauren morgan: And I really, you know, I was really focused on like the juvenile justice side and really the last couple years I've started learning about the child welfare side and then I moved to St. Louis, and we're about their child welfare, so I which they call the children's division.
00:24:27.900 --> 00:24:42.630
lauren morgan: And it's been a learning curve because it's just so, so much. And so many different policies and changes and Funding, Legislation and. But anyway, there's about 450,000 kids in foster care on any given day in the US.
00:24:43.680 --> 00:24:45.810
lauren morgan: And largely that's due to neglect.
00:24:47.010 --> 00:24:51.150
lauren morgan: Of course there's abuse, too, but it's mostly neglect cases and
00:24:52.350 --> 00:25:02.250
lauren morgan: So these kids, most of them, they started they more recently ministers in kinship care as a placement for kids, which is really great. Those kids do a lot better.
00:25:03.270 --> 00:25:03.510
lauren morgan: And
00:25:03.540 --> 00:25:06.090
Tom Baker: That's like, that's what can you what is, what does that mean
00:25:06.210 --> 00:25:16.710
lauren morgan: Yes. Yeah, so that's that's like a family members, so like a relative like an aunt or uncle or grandparent. Right. And like I said those kids do a lot better because they have those familial ties.
00:25:18.210 --> 00:25:20.520
lauren morgan: Or kids will go to a foster family.
00:25:21.840 --> 00:25:27.480
lauren morgan: And sometimes those places can be hectic lots of kids running around depends
00:25:28.290 --> 00:25:41.970
lauren morgan: But you know there's some really great families out there that are doing that, but then a large portion you know 15 to 20% or in these Kongregate congregate care group home facilities like boys and girls homes place where I worked in Seattle.
00:25:43.260 --> 00:25:53.550
lauren morgan: And and what's happening there is so you have that happening. But then you have this decarceration from the juvenile side and a lot of those kids, they're
00:25:53.970 --> 00:26:09.330
lauren morgan: Getting community based treatment. A lot of those place lovelies they're going, are these group homes to. So then you have these kids who are made. They're all they're all to get at these facilities and so pure Association, you have those issues.
00:26:10.410 --> 00:26:12.900
lauren morgan: But but staying on the foster care side for now. I mean,
00:26:14.910 --> 00:26:18.390
lauren morgan: The kids who who go to kinship care do much better.
00:26:18.870 --> 00:26:27.120
lauren morgan: And then, you know, the group. It just gets worse. So like the group homes. I mean, I worked in one there. They're terrible. I mean really just stepped down from
00:26:27.360 --> 00:26:32.850
lauren morgan: Being in a juvenile detention facility. The law everything from like the lighting just makes you want to like rip your eyes out.
00:26:33.750 --> 00:26:41.010
lauren morgan: The surveillance survey survey hints, you know, everyone is just watching you at all times. You have all these rules and
00:26:41.310 --> 00:26:53.400
lauren morgan: And and like I said, a lot of kids just don't do well and those typically are the kids that end up in these places are the kids that don't do well and in family placements. Right. So these are the kids who have mental health issues.
00:26:54.120 --> 00:26:58.110
lauren morgan: Older or maybe we're involved with the criminal justice system juvenile justice system.
00:26:59.220 --> 00:27:07.710
lauren morgan: have behavioral issues. So they really need even more help, but then they're getting it. So it's just a constant cycle and awful really
00:27:08.400 --> 00:27:13.200
Tom Baker: Right, so it's you have you have these two that and you alluded to it.
00:27:13.470 --> 00:27:14.400
Tom Baker: A little bit like
00:27:15.120 --> 00:27:29.280
Tom Baker: A crossover. Yeah, so they're like they're they're connected in some kind of, in some ways, is that so you have the juvenile justice system around the country. This loosely organized system to manage kids that have been, you know, convicted adjudicated of
00:27:29.580 --> 00:27:31.380
Tom Baker: Crime are in the process of being educated
00:27:31.710 --> 00:27:47.130
Tom Baker: And then you have children who have been deemed at risk and need some type of assistance of intervention. And so you have some positive things happen with, you know, people being diverted to taking taking care of my family members, but then you also have this sort of
00:27:48.210 --> 00:27:58.470
Tom Baker: Connection between these two institutions is that connection. Is that something that's formalized and highly structured and manage that. What is the connection look like
00:27:59.100 --> 00:28:07.020
lauren morgan: Between so that's that's the thing. It's like in this varies in every jurisdictions that I'll talk about St. Louis, and then I'll talk about Seattle. But St. Louis.
00:28:07.980 --> 00:28:11.670
lauren morgan: You have the juvenile family court system. It's like this overarching system.
00:28:12.030 --> 00:28:24.600
lauren morgan: And then you have the Family Court side and those hearings and then you have the juvenile court side and those hearings and they operate in silos, like they don't connect. There's no date. There's no data sharing will get. I mean, that's a huge issue, but
00:28:25.800 --> 00:28:35.820
lauren morgan: You know, so, so it's just lack of organization, no communication. And so I was really answering the kids because they're getting services over here with with the children's division and then they're getting
00:28:36.150 --> 00:28:44.460
lauren morgan: They had their probation officer and services that their probation officer is trying to set them up with or their DJ. Oh, and it's just confusion.
00:28:45.420 --> 00:28:51.000
lauren morgan: No one's working together. It's not wrapped around. And so, you know, and then
00:28:51.570 --> 00:29:07.380
lauren morgan: They might end up in a group home or something like that. And in you have some kids who might have been just fine in a group home but then they have this peer association with, you know, a kid who who's not doing so well and urge them to go elsewhere. And it's just, it's an absolute mess.
00:29:08.610 --> 00:29:15.210
lauren morgan: And there's no agency sharing or data information sharing. So between agencies so
00:29:16.740 --> 00:29:23.190
lauren morgan: Everything from like medications that kids should be using though that gets confused and I saw that all the time in Seattle.
00:29:24.480 --> 00:29:28.590
lauren morgan: Services like they might have like three different therapists.
00:29:29.010 --> 00:29:29.760
Tom Baker: You know, it's just
00:29:30.300 --> 00:29:37.200
lauren morgan: It's really an issue and and things are starting to take place where they're trying to implement like
00:29:38.130 --> 00:29:48.060
lauren morgan: That. So the Annie Casey Foundation, it's, it's a foundation from Seattle, they, they were they were the ones actually going back to like this decarceration room and they're the ones who kind of
00:29:48.990 --> 00:29:58.410
lauren morgan: Put together this reform agenda to decarceration juvenile detention facilities. So that was kind of dinner initiative and then they were kinda like, Oh, what about these kids that are kind of in both
00:29:58.800 --> 00:30:05.550
lauren morgan: And there's something called like the crossover youth practice model. I think it's called and they're starting to implement that in different cities.
00:30:06.180 --> 00:30:19.410
lauren morgan: We don't really know how that's working out, but it's more of this like wraparound approach sharing the data sharing information, but it's hard because I mean that that takes time and caseworkers aren't prepared for that either.
00:30:19.830 --> 00:30:28.770
Tom Baker: So like if you're so like imagine, let me give you a hypothetical. So Sam working in a juvenile detention facility and same in Seattle, and I have a youth.
00:30:29.310 --> 00:30:32.280
Tom Baker: Arrive and I'm going to, I don't know how it works in
00:30:32.820 --> 00:30:42.540
Tom Baker: There and there, but so like said after like they there's some type of intake process and somebody in charge of ensuring for the welfare of this child and making sure they're where they are, that they're, you know, everything's taken care of.
00:30:43.140 --> 00:30:52.050
Tom Baker: The person in charge of that today. So if I'm working at the juvenile detention facility. Do I have access to the database being managed by the state, child welfare agency.
00:30:52.560 --> 00:30:54.510
Tom Baker: So I couldn't, I couldn't look and see
00:30:54.750 --> 00:31:09.480
Tom Baker: How many kids homes is this child been in who where they've been what is there. And then, so no and then on the other side. So say I'm a juvenile probation officer would I then have if I wanted to say, Oh, what is this
00:31:11.430 --> 00:31:22.410
Tom Baker: I'm sorry, a child welfare agent and I'm in charge of placing the child. What I have access to the database to look and see what what is this person's history been with the criminal justice system is that readily available.
00:31:22.740 --> 00:31:24.000
lauren morgan: That is more available.
00:31:24.030 --> 00:31:25.440
Tom Baker: More of it i would i would expect.
00:31:25.740 --> 00:31:28.020
lauren morgan: Yeah, and and but then a lot of times
00:31:29.130 --> 00:31:41.160
lauren morgan: Sometimes they don't want to know because they want to get that kid and a placement and it's really about just getting them and getting them to a placement and, like, try to get like let that stuff rushing to the table for, like, I mean,
00:31:41.760 --> 00:31:51.210
lauren morgan: You know, so in some ways the data sharing my be problematic for kids trying to find place to. So that's something we'll have to figure out, but
00:31:52.140 --> 00:31:59.850
lauren morgan: Yeah, I mean they don't they don't really care. It's more of a system like it's, it really is. It's more like okay let's get them in here.
00:32:00.540 --> 00:32:08.640
lauren morgan: Okay, where's like if you're on the juvenile side and you're doing the intake. It's like, and I don't know as much about this because I didn't really I worked a cup. We actually had a
00:32:08.880 --> 00:32:17.010
lauren morgan: Partnership with the juvenile detention facility across the street. So I like solved and worked over there. A few nights, but just as you know kind of monitoring kids.
00:32:17.850 --> 00:32:19.980
lauren morgan: So I don't really know much about that side but
00:32:20.880 --> 00:32:27.810
lauren morgan: You know I it's my understanding that they come in, they do the intake and then when when they go to release. They'll just if they don't have a guardian, they call it social worker.
00:32:27.900 --> 00:32:36.390
lauren morgan: And then it's the social workers job to find them a placement as quickly as possible, which is why they would end up in our residential emergency placement facility. Right.
00:32:36.660 --> 00:32:37.020
Tom Baker: Right.
00:32:37.500 --> 00:32:43.740
lauren morgan: And then the case manager there, which was me at one point we have to try to find them a suitable placement
00:32:44.340 --> 00:33:01.620
lauren morgan: And it's just hard sometimes you'll be on the phone all night trying to find a good place to live. And sometimes they'll be just sleeping on you're in the office and they are because there's no room to go, it's just it's, there's a lot of influx and especially now with that decarceration
00:33:03.180 --> 00:33:13.530
lauren morgan: There's just, there's just not enough placements and I think that's why in a place like Seattle, you know, kids are being detained more often for those styles events and things like things like that because there's just no other option.
00:33:14.460 --> 00:33:25.080
Tom Baker: I read so so ahead of this I read a little bit of stuff, you know, Britain, and you talk a little bit talk about this idea of, of the Carswell status hidden
00:33:25.470 --> 00:33:27.600
Tom Baker: Shadows yes shadow the shadow
00:33:27.600 --> 00:33:31.350
Tom Baker: Cartoons or can you talk about, well, you just you just started. Can you talk a little bit about
00:33:31.830 --> 00:33:38.280
Tom Baker: About that what what that what that means and how that plays out with with kids in this these two systems.
00:33:38.850 --> 00:33:46.080
lauren morgan: Yeah, so it's a little bit of a stretch right now it's kind of something. I'm trying to develop with my qualitative projects so
00:33:47.670 --> 00:33:50.910
lauren morgan: Basically, so the shadow partial state is this idea that
00:33:51.630 --> 00:34:01.980
lauren morgan: These different types of punishments that not that aren't traditional you know are kind of trickling down and promoting the growth of a partial state through like fines and fees and things like that.
00:34:02.520 --> 00:34:15.060
lauren morgan: Catherine Beckett talks about that a lot. And I'm kind of arguing that this is happening at the juvenile level and and and she talks about a little bit too about this valid court order and the status defenses and things like that. She talks about that.
00:34:15.930 --> 00:34:25.560
lauren morgan: But I kind of argue that, like with the privatization of foster care. And this kind of and then bringing in this also this idea of the organizational battles and barriers there.
00:34:27.090 --> 00:34:32.130
lauren morgan: You know, just the lack of organization and a lack of talking between systems.
00:34:32.580 --> 00:34:42.690
lauren morgan: All these little things are kind of having this trickle down effect to expand this cars, real estate. So you have these kids that are yeah that there's more community based care but
00:34:43.260 --> 00:34:50.820
lauren morgan: They have these connections. Now to the criminal justice system and now they're getting this community based care but hey also
00:34:52.080 --> 00:34:59.430
lauren morgan: That kid is talking to a foster kid that might have been on the right path already. And so it's just this like wide net whitening effect.
00:35:00.540 --> 00:35:05.490
lauren morgan: And and that's kind of what I'm getting at. I you know I don't have enough data yet.
00:35:05.550 --> 00:35:09.120
Tom Baker: No, no, it's, it's sort of performing idea, but it's like you're saying that like
00:35:09.990 --> 00:35:20.550
Tom Baker: You have these two systems and when they they come together in this disorganized haphazard way and it's it's happening. Alongside this d incarceration of kids.
00:35:20.940 --> 00:35:29.490
Tom Baker: That the basically the state is outsourcing the detention of these children from these institutions to thought the foster care system.
00:35:29.820 --> 00:35:31.290
Tom Baker: And expanding itself.
00:35:31.350 --> 00:35:32.790
Tom Baker: By by
00:35:34.080 --> 00:35:46.920
Tom Baker: By drawing kids that are in the foster care system into the criminal justice system. Select the basically the the foster care system and the criminal justice system are coming together to be this massive institution to
00:35:47.640 --> 00:35:53.940
lauren morgan: Yeah, yeah. And it's really interesting because originally the foster care and juvenile justice system where one
00:35:55.140 --> 00:36:00.780
lauren morgan: And then they kind of thought and it's interesting because we talked about in juvenile justice we talked about like the child savers.
00:36:01.140 --> 00:36:10.890
lauren morgan: And these reformers that thought of the juvenile court would be this, like, great idea but really a lot of people argue that it wasn't because before that they weren't really controlled right
00:36:12.090 --> 00:36:14.880
lauren morgan: What did it look like before, like what it looked like before like
00:36:14.910 --> 00:36:16.770
Tom Baker: Before the separation.
00:36:17.070 --> 00:36:19.590
Tom Baker: What. Yeah. What did it look like you just tell us quickly but
00:36:20.220 --> 00:36:20.730
00:36:21.990 --> 00:36:28.710
lauren morgan: It's interesting. It depends. There's a lot of like racial differences and that you know younger black youth were
00:36:29.250 --> 00:36:38.490
lauren morgan: They were under the slave system. I mean, especially in the South, like they weren't even considered part of the juvenile system or the foster care system at all.
00:36:39.030 --> 00:36:47.370
lauren morgan: So that was separate and then and it's kind of like the black child saving movement. And that's another interesting thing, but the foster care system.
00:36:48.450 --> 00:36:58.170
lauren morgan: Just those those kids who were kind of dependent and and run away homeless street youth. They were just kind of picked up and hung out on the streets and then we're
00:36:58.800 --> 00:37:10.350
lauren morgan: In the juvenile justice system. And that was kind of it and then the foster care system didn't really become super formalized and separate until like the 1930s ish time
00:37:11.580 --> 00:37:24.210
lauren morgan: And then that's kind of, and then they had their kind of own separate progressive reform movement to before that, where they're like, we need to do something with these kids. And then, and that kind of urge that separation.
00:37:24.510 --> 00:37:28.710
lauren morgan: And and and like pointing out that these kids are different than the criminal kids right
00:37:28.800 --> 00:37:29.070
00:37:30.090 --> 00:37:36.210
lauren morgan: And so like in a lot of ways. I thought that would be a great thing. But then it's kind of gotten to this point where they're separate but then
00:37:36.480 --> 00:37:47.610
lauren morgan: There's a lot of kids that are still crossing over, and they're not and they're kind of like I say like falling between the cracks, because there's just, they're kind of going between both systems and
00:37:48.930 --> 00:37:50.400
Tom Baker: The crossover youth, you can
00:37:50.400 --> 00:37:53.490
lauren morgan: Use it across everything and we can talk about that a little bit, but
00:37:53.520 --> 00:38:06.420
lauren morgan: Crossover can happen, like so many different ways, right. Like you could have a youth who was in the juvenile justice system and then when they go to be released. There's no one there. So they put them into children's division or
00:38:06.810 --> 00:38:13.230
lauren morgan: They're on the child welfare side and they get picked up a while they're running away.
00:38:14.340 --> 00:38:27.570
lauren morgan: Or there, they get arrested and then they realize that there's a dependency or neglect issue there so it can happen all different kinds of ways, which is really makes it confusing to kind of get good numbers on how many of these kids there are
00:38:29.010 --> 00:38:38.190
lauren morgan: There's different ways you can do it, you can look at juvenile justice samples or child welfare samples and it's it's really hard and confusing and those numbers are kind of all over the place.
00:38:39.420 --> 00:38:51.210
lauren morgan: Which is why I assume, and that that protection makes juvenile justice, a really hard avenue to study, but then that element of foster care that double protection makes it even harder to study.
00:38:52.380 --> 00:38:52.680
lauren morgan: So,
00:38:53.370 --> 00:39:07.140
Tom Baker: Imagine if you have all of so you have different different agencies all over the country to different mechanisms are all their loosely organized so there's no there's nobody in charge of collecting data and
00:39:08.040 --> 00:39:17.940
Tom Baker: And in one place. So it would be very difficult is it is this. This is sort of something that hasn't. Would you say this is something that hasn't been given the amount of attention that it should be given
00:39:18.720 --> 00:39:29.850
lauren morgan: Yeah. Especially, I mean I think on the social the social work, child welfare side like childhood studies side that I think it has been tapped into and they kind of like
00:39:30.180 --> 00:39:39.420
lauren morgan: Oh, and then, but they very like, you know, they'll briefly go over, like the juvenile justice involvement piece, but that's been really helpful. That's kind of where I've been pulling a lot from
00:39:40.560 --> 00:39:55.890
lauren morgan: But on the on the juvenile side they barely ever talk about that and i and i have even talked to, like, you know, pretty prominent like juvenile justice scholars and again it's just we don't really like tap into that because it's it's hard. It's hard to to get good samples on that and
00:39:57.060 --> 00:40:06.150
lauren morgan: Just that protection element is it makes it really hard. So it's definitely not not been tapped into which is why it kind of started with like a qualitative approach.
00:40:07.080 --> 00:40:16.500
lauren morgan: To start things out and trying to hopefully move towards like a mixed methods thing for my dissertation where you know now that I'm like in these different
00:40:17.550 --> 00:40:20.520
lauren morgan: Agencies and things in Seattle or St. Louis, sorry.
00:40:21.540 --> 00:40:27.690
lauren morgan: I am kind of in there and they can maybe help me get data, you know, so that was kind of my approach right now but
00:40:28.290 --> 00:40:37.110
Tom Baker: So you're early on, you're just getting started in your academic career but if you've already have some you have quite a bit of experience working
00:40:37.680 --> 00:40:48.630
Tom Baker: And doing your research. When you look at you have this sort of organic thing and then over time, you have this these systems, develop and you have and you come up to where we are right now.
00:40:49.110 --> 00:40:59.220
Tom Baker: And you look forward into the future, if you were dictator perpetual in charge of everything. And you could say, Okay, I'm going to fix this. Here's what we're going to do.
00:40:59.670 --> 00:41:10.680
Tom Baker: Do you have some policy recommendations and they don't necessarily need to be like totally realistic that you get them, Pat, but like, how would you, if you were in charge. How would you manage because we're in
00:41:11.550 --> 00:41:25.080
Tom Baker: A post industrial society we you know 350 million people. We're going to have kids that don't have safe place to stay. We're going to have kids that are engaging in dangerous behavior that we need to detain. I mean, I think it's
00:41:25.470 --> 00:41:30.390
Tom Baker: That's the reality of living in a map, you know, society like ours, how you
00:41:31.500 --> 00:41:33.720
Tom Baker: Shape that, how would you structure that
00:41:35.130 --> 00:41:49.770
lauren morgan: Yeah, it's kind of my approach is like a little bit out there. I would, if, if I can choose. I would probably just get rid of the whole juvenile court system and focus more so on the on the child welfare side.
00:41:51.060 --> 00:41:56.520
lauren morgan: And build that kind of like child welfare policy right and just really focus on that.
00:41:57.660 --> 00:42:04.530
lauren morgan: If we had to keep a juvenile court system, obviously, strengthening that that connection between the systems, right. So like
00:42:05.220 --> 00:42:14.790
lauren morgan: Not two different courts one juvenile court or one family court that has a little juvenile component to it for, you know, kids who
00:42:15.150 --> 00:42:20.100
lauren morgan: You know, maybe are waiting before they're getting transferred to adult court or something like that.
00:42:20.460 --> 00:42:31.290
lauren morgan: But, you know, and I think we're actually, it's kind of seems like we're kind of moving towards something more similar to that with this decarceration thing. And I think the Casey Foundation is is kind of on the same track. Is that too.
00:42:33.060 --> 00:42:49.800
lauren morgan: But yeah, more like increased child welfare policy really focusing on you know if this if these kids aren't going to have a family, then building other thing other protective factors. So more you know better community based programs and
00:42:51.270 --> 00:42:58.380
lauren morgan: You know job preparation, things like that to help them in the transition because that's where I mean for these kids who
00:42:58.710 --> 00:43:10.440
lauren morgan: Who don't find a good placement and kind of jump around from placements placement. Those are the ones who really have issues in the future. So those are the ones who are going to end up in the adult criminal system.
00:43:10.650 --> 00:43:11.040
lauren morgan: Those are the
00:43:11.100 --> 00:43:16.680
lauren morgan: Ones who are going to be Welford. Those are the ones who are going to be an up homeless.
00:43:16.710 --> 00:43:17.730
Tom Baker: And that's what we see.
00:43:18.240 --> 00:43:25.710
lauren morgan: So really focusing on those youth strengthening those programs to get them into college to get them to transition better
00:43:27.150 --> 00:43:33.960
lauren morgan: A lot of these kids, they have the choice to stay in in St. Louis. They in Missouri, they have the choice to stay in foster care till 21
00:43:34.410 --> 00:43:47.970
lauren morgan: But they also have the choice to emancipate from foster care and and a lot of people and a lot of kids don't know that stuff like they don't even know that they can stay in foster care and and in Missouri, you can get a full year college completely paid for.
00:43:48.960 --> 00:43:56.280
lauren morgan: I mean, that's amazing. I mean, and people don't know those things like I was, I was actually talking to this with the judge Jimmy Edwards.
00:43:56.640 --> 00:44:01.560
lauren morgan: He, he was telling me yeah like I encourage all the kids because he was a
00:44:01.980 --> 00:44:13.320
lauren morgan: family court judge for like seven years in St. Louis. And he's like, I encourage all these kids to just stay in foster care as long as they could. And that's great you know that that that transition period is what we need to focus on to
00:44:14.490 --> 00:44:25.740
lauren morgan: But first, if we had to keep it how it was sharing data would be number one and then having more like a wraparound approach, kind of, you know, this like crossover youth practice model. It seems like it's going to be
00:44:26.520 --> 00:44:42.480
lauren morgan: really positive. So we'll see how that goes. But something more along those lines wraparound services. Connect the probation officer with the caseworker with the mental health therapist have everyone connected and move from there, or really just get scrapped the juvenile system.
00:44:43.410 --> 00:44:43.830
Tom Baker: To go
00:44:43.980 --> 00:44:45.180
lauren morgan: On the kids. I mean,
00:44:45.510 --> 00:44:46.590
Tom Baker: They're just kid, you know,
00:44:46.620 --> 00:44:51.210
Tom Baker: Yeah, they're just they're just kids and. And the other thing is like thinking about
00:44:51.930 --> 00:45:02.250
Tom Baker: Why is it that in america the richest country in the history of mankind that we have so many families who are struggling, the way they are and like
00:45:02.910 --> 00:45:11.310
Tom Baker: Housing instability employment instability, you know, like, lack of resources and opportunities and just, you know, disgusting levels of wealth inequality put
00:45:12.840 --> 00:45:22.470
Tom Baker: Massive amounts of pressure on the American family and these children. A lot of them are being, you know, squeezed out of families by all this all this pressure so
00:45:23.070 --> 00:45:35.610
Tom Baker: As, as a society, it makes sense to to struggle to provide resources to families so that we don't have kids being forced out of homes into the system, who then had developed
00:45:36.150 --> 00:45:45.060
Tom Baker: All kinds of problems there. And we have to incarcerate them. We have to provide you know that makes so much more sense to just say, hey, we're going to spend this money strengthening families.
00:45:45.600 --> 00:45:49.170
lauren morgan: Yeah, and spend the money now so that they're set up.
00:45:49.320 --> 00:45:52.560
lauren morgan: To be positive, members of society later. I mean, it just
00:45:53.820 --> 00:45:54.870
lauren morgan: Yeah yeah
00:45:54.900 --> 00:45:58.500
Tom Baker: It's a little. It's a little. It's a little frustrating. What so
00:45:59.100 --> 00:46:10.110
Tom Baker: So, you, you, you're getting you're learning about this, this problem of social problem you're developing some some theories, you have some ideas for policy some ideas for your dissertation.
00:46:10.350 --> 00:46:22.290
Tom Baker: What comes after that. So when you're when you finish your dissertation. You guys, or do you want to work on an academic role. Do you want to work on the nonprofit and government, what, what do you see yourself doing for the
00:46:23.490 --> 00:46:23.850
Tom Baker: Future.
00:46:24.270 --> 00:46:26.640
lauren morgan: Yeah, right now I see myself working in policy.
00:46:29.070 --> 00:46:30.570
lauren morgan: That could change but
00:46:31.800 --> 00:46:37.140
lauren morgan: You know, even when we, I just had this our annual review meeting you know with with my committee and everything and
00:46:38.490 --> 00:46:46.350
lauren morgan: I kind of brought up the idea of I want to get it out into more of an interdisciplinary approach to I'm kind of
00:46:47.340 --> 00:46:55.710
lauren morgan: Feeling a little restricted by like the strictly criminology atmosphere. And in a way, I want to branch out into like the
00:46:56.550 --> 00:47:04.890
lauren morgan: You know, child welfare, the family court review stuff those kind of journals and start publishing out there a little bit more
00:47:05.490 --> 00:47:12.120
lauren morgan: For right now, and they all encourage that. And then also I have another year of course work right now. So like we're
00:47:12.510 --> 00:47:26.070
lauren morgan: Thinking about like the near future. I'm actually looking to take a child welfare policy class in lieu of our policy class at school and Beth is is supporting me in that my advisor and
00:47:27.570 --> 00:47:35.730
lauren morgan: And so that's really exciting. I'm excited to learn more about like welfare policy, because I don't really know a lot about that. So I definitely want to go into policy.
00:47:36.870 --> 00:47:43.470
lauren morgan: I right now that's that's kind of where I'm where I'm at. But I guess that can change, but I think
00:47:43.920 --> 00:47:45.690
Tom Baker: Cool, that it totally makes sense that
00:47:45.810 --> 00:47:53.040
Tom Baker: I think it's interesting that you just talked about what you just touched on, I think is important as well as this this how insulated disciplines are
00:47:53.340 --> 00:47:53.820
Tom Baker: Yeah, like
00:47:54.810 --> 00:47:55.200
00:47:56.670 --> 00:48:01.320
Tom Baker: criminology. I've noticed that. And they're all all disciplines are the same, because
00:48:01.770 --> 00:48:10.320
Tom Baker: It makes sense that you want to strengthen your discipline, so that the department, you know, so there's like it's your part of that institution but like the people like
00:48:11.160 --> 00:48:19.800
Tom Baker: Reading the same journals, citing the same people getting the same theories and retraining them over and over, because you
00:48:20.490 --> 00:48:29.970
Tom Baker: Are going to be able to get it published in a journal. If your journal articles being reviewed by somebody who you're citing a lot and they cite a lot and you're part of that.
00:48:30.570 --> 00:48:37.230
Tom Baker: And it's this it becomes this very incestuous sort of community of people, which, you know, like all disciplines are
00:48:37.650 --> 00:48:39.330
Tom Baker: Like that. So I commend you for
00:48:39.570 --> 00:48:45.510
Tom Baker: Recognizing that and taking making concerted effort to go outside and what do you think that's like
00:48:46.020 --> 00:48:55.590
Tom Baker: So if you get a field like like criminology. And then you say, hey, we're going to really, I'm going to really push to do interdisciplinary work and draw it and you body of literature. What does that. What does that do
00:48:57.720 --> 00:49:06.930
lauren morgan: Hopefully it broadens perspectives. I mean, I was actually just talking. I don't know if you know who Jeff ward is he's a associate sociology professor over at Wash U
00:49:07.380 --> 00:49:16.740
lauren morgan: And he who's actually on Dr. Morning, Maria says committee at Irvine, but just moved to St. Louis, and I met him at a talk over there and then
00:49:17.520 --> 00:49:25.530
lauren morgan: And he's interested in like race and juvenile justice so you know just connecting with him was pretty cool. And I talked to him about for about two hours.
00:49:26.010 --> 00:49:43.260
lauren morgan: The other day about just about how you can really just take any class and he talked about in his grad school approach just. He was like, I took some like history of jazz classes and like environmental justice classes and things like that and and he was like it wasn't really about like
00:49:44.340 --> 00:49:48.300
lauren morgan: The material. It's about learning different ways to write and learning different ways.
00:49:49.350 --> 00:50:04.920
lauren morgan: To reach people in different different ways to study things and I think, you know, learning from like the social work side. I'm just like, it's a completely different way more like case studies and and different way to learn things and
00:50:05.970 --> 00:50:11.190
lauren morgan: You know, for the last five years, I've been in this like criminology mindset of like
00:50:12.030 --> 00:50:20.580
lauren morgan: Okay. And do this like lit review and then you do your, you know, it's just like, it's like strategic thing and it's like it's been really cool to kind of branch out
00:50:21.540 --> 00:50:30.660
lauren morgan: And I mean, on the on that side. Everyone seems like really interested and and they're like, well, you're like the criminology person so you can bring this perspective.
00:50:30.660 --> 00:50:33.270
Tom Baker: Right. There's the cross pollinate
00:50:33.420 --> 00:50:42.390
lauren morgan: Yeah, it's I think it's great. I think like, why do we have to be like, you know, why do we have to be in in silos. Why does it have to be. I don't. Yeah, I just don't
00:50:42.810 --> 00:50:45.660
Tom Baker: I found the things that I've read that are from
00:50:46.650 --> 00:50:48.630
Tom Baker: Completely different disciplines.
00:50:48.660 --> 00:50:53.640
Tom Baker: But that they may be related to the idea, but they're inherently different disciplines sometimes those are the things that make
00:50:53.730 --> 00:51:02.280
Tom Baker: It stick in my mind, the most like I took a class on on the conquest. So it was like on the conquest of the end quote unquote new world.
00:51:03.600 --> 00:51:16.290
Tom Baker: And it was all about the conquistadores and that you know and how the conquest and one of the books they assign was like the body of the contest adore it was called. And it was about how
00:51:17.070 --> 00:51:29.550
Tom Baker: The, the Spanish state controlled what food settlers were key store. So we're we're consuming while they were in the New World, and it was, how about how
00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:42.150
Tom Baker: You know identity was managed through food, Bob, you know, but it was, it was like something I'd never thought about it was in a time that I'd never thought about with human beings that are operating in a completely different.
00:51:42.600 --> 00:51:59.070
Tom Baker: socio cultural operating system, but the the the basic stripped down ideas about how you control human beings and shape a society. Those are, are there when you put them in another context and you step outside of your literature's and
00:51:59.190 --> 00:52:06.720
Tom Baker: Yeah, it's, it's like, oh wow that's a there's an insight there that I can see. So I think it's I think it's incredibly valuable and again
00:52:08.190 --> 00:52:10.350
Tom Baker: Something to definitely focus on moving forward.
00:52:10.500 --> 00:52:10.800
00:52:12.300 --> 00:52:12.660
Tom Baker: I'm
00:52:13.230 --> 00:52:14.460
lauren morgan: Glad know
00:52:15.810 --> 00:52:21.090
Tom Baker: Jay, let me. So I've had you on for quite a while. I just want to ask you about one more thing.
00:52:21.660 --> 00:52:31.170
Tom Baker: So keep up the good work. And anyone who's actually I'm gonna put a link to your information in the description so they can check you out follow you as you move forward through your career.
00:52:31.830 --> 00:52:42.690
Tom Baker: What's going on right now. I just wanted to shift gears, because I mean this is, I think this is a major event with what happened in Minneapolis George Floyd and
00:52:43.500 --> 00:52:54.810
Tom Baker: He was murdered, and we just had an arrest. He talked a little bit about in just maybe give some initial some of your thoughts and then if you could talk about what this, what type of an impact.
00:52:55.860 --> 00:53:07.530
Tom Baker: This series of events may have on youth who are in these systems that you're describing, and especially like young black youth so
00:53:08.550 --> 00:53:10.680
Tom Baker: Who are who are going through the system what
00:53:12.270 --> 00:53:17.880
Tom Baker: What you think based on your experience like the message that this may be sending out. Yeah.
00:53:18.690 --> 00:53:24.930
lauren morgan: So first of all, I mean just obvious. My heart is just just goes out to the black community right now I
00:53:25.920 --> 00:53:37.380
lauren morgan: Two things have kind of like stood out to me and one is just the silence around a lot of these things from from different communities and it's just kind of deafening to me.
00:53:37.890 --> 00:53:50.130
lauren morgan: And it's, it's been really hard on me actually like the last just couple days, just like I can't believe like how many people are like so quick to talk about the riots and the uproar.
00:53:50.760 --> 00:53:55.650
lauren morgan: But not the events that preceded that and just kind of missing the point.
00:53:56.550 --> 00:54:04.320
lauren morgan: And and and so having trying to have these conversations with different groups like outside of academia that may have not had
00:54:04.800 --> 00:54:16.950
lauren morgan: The privilege to have, you know, to be educated on these things and and raises an issue. You know, people are just uncomfortable to talk about it. So trying to have these these talks with people. It's just been it's been dreaming.
00:54:18.000 --> 00:54:27.120
lauren morgan: To be honest, and really unfortunate. So, you know, I kind of feel helpless right now just reach out to my friends in. Hey, I'm here with you and see what's going on.
00:54:28.140 --> 00:54:33.870
lauren morgan: I'm not black. But I can. I understand that what I don't understand what you're going through. But I am here with you.
00:54:34.170 --> 00:54:35.190
lauren morgan: And see you
00:54:36.810 --> 00:54:45.360
lauren morgan: And so just that. And then, you know, from a legal standpoint, the fact that he was charged with third degree officer former officer shopping was
00:54:45.630 --> 00:54:56.580
lauren morgan: You know charger third degree manslaughter is just kind of seems like a slap on the wrist pulling that intent piece out of it. It was just, just, I don't know, like just depleting really
00:54:56.940 --> 00:54:58.320
Tom Baker: And how long it took as well.
00:54:58.650 --> 00:55:01.530
lauren morgan: Yeah, that has a whole nother issue and
00:55:03.150 --> 00:55:15.450
lauren morgan: And so that it's just it just seems like maybe he might may even just get off of like probation or a couple years you know sentence and it's just it's what's sad about it is it's really not surprising and so
00:55:16.680 --> 00:55:25.230
lauren morgan: Yeah, but in terms of black youth. I was actually thinking about what it would be like working at the group home.
00:55:26.460 --> 00:55:28.440
lauren morgan: Right now, and
00:55:30.900 --> 00:55:31.410
lauren morgan: Man.
00:55:32.700 --> 00:55:38.790
lauren morgan: In Seattle, it's, it's different because a lot of the kids, they're really interested in race they would always
00:55:39.690 --> 00:55:50.880
lauren morgan: This is like a kind of funny to me in a way they would always be like, Well, what are you like they would ask me things like that. And I always thought I was really feeling like I'm just, you know, I'm like white Caucasian, I don't
00:55:51.630 --> 00:55:55.290
lauren morgan: Know like you gotta be like tribal or something like no no I'm not.
00:55:56.010 --> 00:55:56.610
Tom Baker: I'm boring.
00:55:57.450 --> 00:56:04.440
lauren morgan: I'm just wait and they, you know, they're like so interested in reason I think that like with social media and things. Kids are
00:56:04.710 --> 00:56:06.810
Tom Baker: Also because it's so important to that allows them
00:56:07.380 --> 00:56:11.190
Tom Baker: To the impact, it's going to have on the lot of their life operators. I'm sorry. Go ahead.
00:56:11.490 --> 00:56:19.230
lauren morgan: No, you're right, but also like the racial makeup and Seattle is is predominantly white right and and so
00:56:20.760 --> 00:56:31.620
lauren morgan: They're just so interested in it and it's like big part of their identity and they really love talking about it, and though I was kind of imagining if I was there this time, and I'm sure we would be having
00:56:31.950 --> 00:56:41.250
lauren morgan: Some really like interesting group discussions because they're just interesting to listen to. But I think social media is going to be a huge piece of that.
00:56:42.420 --> 00:56:53.700
lauren morgan: You know, these kids are seeing these things and I don't you know at that age. I didn't really I wasn't really in so on social media at that time. And so it was just hearing things from my parents or
00:56:54.420 --> 00:56:59.430
lauren morgan: You know, and that was like a one sided perspective. But I think kids now can can make their own
00:57:00.720 --> 00:57:03.750
lauren morgan: Opinions on things and I think it's I think it's powerful, I think.
00:57:04.770 --> 00:57:07.050
lauren morgan: Their voices are going to be heard more
00:57:08.370 --> 00:57:12.060
lauren morgan: And I think social media is going to be a big role in that. I mean,
00:57:13.140 --> 00:57:18.630
lauren morgan: It's just crazy. I mean, I'm now at the point where I'm making my own opinions. Like I feel like
00:57:19.200 --> 00:57:32.880
lauren morgan: This whole his whole these last few months, I've just been insane. And I'm like, finally, in a place where I can be very confident in my opinions and be in speak out. But these kids are like learning that from a younger age, I think, and I think that's pretty powerful.
00:57:33.330 --> 00:57:41.520
Tom Baker: Absolutely. Like you talk about the social media. I think like this wouldn't be happening if it wasn't for social media. I mean, what would have happened.
00:57:41.940 --> 00:57:51.840
Tom Baker: You know 15 years ago if this incident has happened, what happened is there would have been a police report, it would have been a rule that in custody death. There may have been some investigation.
00:57:52.380 --> 00:58:03.960
Tom Baker: And that would have been it but with with this incident you have individuals who are holding their hand. The device that can capture moving images at a high frame rates with
00:58:05.040 --> 00:58:10.920
Tom Baker: High Definition with audio and that everyone had they become cost effective enough that everyone has one
00:58:11.340 --> 00:58:16.770
Tom Baker: Then when you have that in your hand, you're connected to a network that allows you to upload those images and share them with
00:58:17.340 --> 00:58:23.130
Tom Baker: Everyone on the planet. If you, if it goes viral. So something that would have been a dish, you know, a quieting
00:58:23.700 --> 00:58:34.500
Tom Baker: Little heard of encounter in a city somewhere in the United States where some unknown black man who we would have never known his name, lost his life because of this technological innovation.
00:58:35.610 --> 00:58:43.920
Tom Baker: It's become something that could fundamentally transform the very nature of our society. So we live in crazy strange times for sure.
00:58:45.510 --> 00:58:47.490
Tom Baker: I can't imagine being one of those kids.
00:58:48.780 --> 00:58:53.880
Tom Baker: In there and it's it's a freaky sort of experience. Yeah.
00:58:54.450 --> 00:59:07.740
lauren morgan: Yeah, and no one in particular, you know, no one to talk to, you know, family to talk to you about it or how that generational talk and and so it's just terrible, terrible
00:59:08.160 --> 00:59:16.260
Tom Baker: It's awful. But I am somewhat i'm i'm never optimistic. I'm a pessimist, but
00:59:17.490 --> 00:59:24.960
Tom Baker: I think that these things we need to like we need to confront them. I mean, we need to push through these issues and this is the time
00:59:26.340 --> 00:59:35.010
Tom Baker: So thank you so much for your time. Before we go, I just wanted to give you like a minute. Do you have any final thoughts or anything you want to leave the listeners with
00:59:36.030 --> 00:59:49.140
lauren morgan: I'm not really. I just hope that you know it you know I would love to connect with anyone who is interested in even just juvenile justice because it's just even that is a very small field. So I'd love to connect. I'm always up to do like
00:59:50.160 --> 00:59:57.420
lauren morgan: You know, like a panel or something in a conference would be really cool. I'm trying to get one together for Western criminology.
00:59:58.710 --> 01:00:13.110
lauren morgan: And I just, I would love to do that. That's just something I want to do moving forward because I've always been like one of those like odd people in the panel like of, you know, I don't know. I'm just like the only one talking about juvenile justice. I'm like, why am I here so
01:00:13.860 --> 01:00:16.020
Tom Baker: If you're, if you're interested in Lauren's work.
01:00:16.740 --> 01:00:20.910
Tom Baker: Collaboration opportunities. Can you shout out your twitter twitter handle real quick.
01:00:21.600 --> 01:00:23.730
lauren morgan: It's Lauren Morgan ski SK I
01:00:24.240 --> 01:00:24.690
Tom Baker: OK.
01:00:25.020 --> 01:00:27.120
Tom Baker: And then what's your, what's your email address, real quick.
01:00:27.480 --> 01:00:31.620
lauren morgan: My email is L dot Morgan at um so or mail.edu
01:00:31.980 --> 01:00:43.710
Tom Baker: Okay, and I'll put both of those. And anything else you send me what for contact info, it'll be in the description below, both in the audio and video format of this. Thank you so much again for your time. It was a pleasure talking to you, or we really appreciate your insights. Yeah.
01:00:43.740 --> 01:00:44.430
lauren morgan: Thanks for having me.